.45 Colt High Performance Loads

[rockquarry]

I've never been a real steadfast Elmer Keith fan but did read much of what he wrote for many years. I think once he became seriously interested in experimenting with the .44 Special, he pretty much abandoned the .45 Colt. True Keith disciples will know the details far better than I.

I've worked with the .44 Special, .44 Magnum, and .45 Colt for well over forty years, almost exclusively with cast bullets. I've used single-action revolvers, double-action revolver, carbines, and rifles.

In .45 Colt, I'm now down to a 25-5 that I bought new around 1980 and a Winchester Trapper purchased new thirty years ago. Being a slow learner, it's taken me a while to figure out the .45 Colt really offers nothing over the .44 Special. That's not a criticism of the .45 Colt; rather it's merely a look from a practical perspective. It seems the .45 Colt has an abstract allure that keeps it from dying entirely.

The .44 Special will take to hot loads as well as the .45 Colt. I suppose there are plenty of advocates for both cartridges. I've never seen much need to hot rod either cartridge. Such loads may not destroy a gun, but they are hard on both gun and shooter. Best accuracy will often be found below maximum threshold levels. Even for hunting, the hottest of loads are not required. Rather, a more suitable gun and cartridge might be better.

 

[PALADIN85020]

I've loaded .45 Colt cartridges to hell-for-leather specs, but only for large-frame Vaqueros, 3-screw later Blackhawks, and a Winchester 94 Trapper. These approach or equal .44 magnum power. They are certainly a handful.

I have several 25-5s, but use only factory or lower-level handloads for them. Just not worth the risk.

John

 

[BLUEDOT37]

Oh no, not this question again...

I have a Model 25 with cylinders for both .45ACP and .45 Colt.
My question is: Can I fire .45 Colts with such high performance loads in my Model 25?

Which M25 do you have?

Not the full "Ruger Only" loads, though their starting loads are roughly the Maximum suggested for the M25s.

The 45ACP M25s can shoot 45ACP +P loads with a SAAMI max of 23K psi (-vs- the 14K psi SAAMI 45 Colt max).

No reason you can't load 250gr 45 Colt loads to the same pressure.

Many of us shoot 45 Super in our 45ACP M25s with no issues also.

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I've had no issues with 45 Colt +P handloads in my 25-13.

Shot pretty good too.
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[BLUEDOT37]

In a recent conversation with a friend I commented that I had heard that one could not load .45 Colt cartridges to higher levels due to an inherent flaw in the case design.

The 45 Colt case was never a problem and it does not have any design flaws ... listen to your friend .

The old 45 Colt cases were ballon heads, like in other cartridges, which was a weakness in the stronger modern revolvers.

Starline's 45 Colt brass are every bit as strong a 44 Magnum cases. I've loaded them to starting 454 Casull loads without issues.

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Balloon head brass in the middle (Internet picture, author unknown)
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Understanding the .45 Colt - Handloader #217
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[Nevada Ed]

Can you push the 250 gr cast bullet on the old 25-5 revolver......... ?

In my Speer manual eleven out of the twelve powders listed max out at.....
986 fps or less, for their top loads.
H4227 will add another 100 fps with a cci 350 Magnum primer.

Do you feel lucky ?

 

[Groo01]

Please cite your source of this information. Who said it? I've never considered that any handgun could do this.

Groo here
Mike Venturo gun writer.

 

[AJ]

The U.S.Military asked for a revolver to supplant the M1873s used in the Philippines in 1909. This brought about the Colt M1909 U.S.Army (Navy and Marine model as well). The spec's for the round were 250 grain slug at 725 FPS which is a reduced load. If they felt it was good enough for combat then what's the fuss now? American Rifleman | Last of Its Kind: The USMC Model 1909 Colt

I shoot my Colt M1909 on a fairly regular basis.

For this loading I use 5.6 grains of Bullseye with the 250 grain slug.

 

[cowboy4evr]

Alliant powder co. has load data for the 45 Colt that does not exceed 14K psi , SAAMI std . They list 9.5 grs of Unique and a Blue Dot load of 12.9 ( call it 13.0 grs ) for a velocity of over 1000 fps using Blue Dot using a 255 gr cast bullet . I emailed them about that Blue Dot load they assured me it meant SAAMI spec's . It is a very accurate , powerful load that I feel is all that is needed . Regards Paul

 

[BLUEDOT37]

Alliant powder co. has load data for the 45 Colt that does not exceed 14K psi , SAAMI std .
They list 9.5 grs of Unique and a Blue Dot load of 12.9 ( call it 13.0 grs ) for a velocity of over 1000 fps using Blue Dot using a 255 gr cast bullet .
I emailed them about that Blue Dot load they assured me it meant SAAMI spec's .
It is a very accurate , powerful load that I feel is all that is needed . Regards Paul

You might want to double check your info.

Your quoted load data is for the swaged 250gr LSWC (#4683) bullet, NOT the 255gr cast SWC (mold# 82050) bullet.

The only (3) powders common to the two different bullets' load data are 1.0gr or more LOWER for the hard cast bullet than the soft swaged bullet.

For those wanting to keep their loads on the safe side, for weaker revolvers, might want to note this difference.

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[cowboy4evr]

I did and see no problem . They list 13.0 grs of Blue Dot with a 260 gr Speer JHP . So that same load with a cast bullet should be safe , as the tech at Alliant told me that using the load data for the Speer 255 swc was fine with cast . Alliants listing for a 250 cast bullet RNFP is showing only one powder BE-86 . This info is right off their website . Where did you get your data as I don't see it on Alliants website . Regards Paul

 

[fredj338]

Nothing really wrong with current manuf 45colt brass. In a strong revo like the Ruger or Casull, you can reach 44mag pressures. Ypu will lose the brass case sooner than with slightly thicker 44mag brass.
I wouldnt run Ruger only loads in a M25, they just arent built for it imo. I would be fine running max SAA 45colt loads in a M25 though.

 

[fredj338]

I did and see no problem . They list 13.0 grs of Blue Dot with a 260 gr Speer JHP . So that same load with a cast bullet should be safe , as the tech at Alliant told me that using the load data for the Speer 255 swc was fine with cast . Alliants listing for a 250 cast bullet RNFP is showing only one powder BE-86 . This info is right off their website . Where did you get your data as I don't see it on Alliants website . Regards Paul

Reloading manuals like Lyman have plenty of data for 45colt. Why ebery reloader needs a couple good, current manuals.

 

[fredj338]

Please cite your source of this information. Who said it? I've never considered that any handgun could do this.

With a medium hard cast, 260gr lead rnfp, running 900fps, I doubt it stops inside a horse broadside unless it hits bone. Of course size f the horse would matter.

 

[Nevada Ed]

Just to shed some light on that story........

not all horses are big and fat............

some are a little skinnier than others, that might shed some light on this story.

 

[steelslaver]

Who ever owns those horses should be stung up. They have been either starved or in serious need of medical care.

But, on the 45 colt consider this.

Instead of looking at mass x velocity squared for an energy factor, look at frontal area, mass and velocity.

.452x.452x3.14=.642x260=167x1000=167,000

.429x.429x3.14=.578x240=139x1300=187,000

which still gives the 44 mag a 10% advantage

as apposed to
45 colt 260x1000x1000=260,000,000/450,240=578ft lb

44 mag 240x1300x1300=405,600,000/450,240=901ft lb

I simply fail to believe that a 44 mag will do 36% more damage than a 45 colt. A big hole is a big hole.

Here is another little fact for the Ruger fans. Ruger's large cylinder is 1.672 in diameter. An N frame Smith has a 1.664 dia cylinder. thats a difference of .008 or about the same as a barrel to cylinder gap. It does have a slightly offset notch though. The frame is also built to take the punishment better, But a model 25 has the exact same frame as a model 29 44 mag. If you stay below the same pressures as a 45acp+P you will never blow up a model 25 45 colt cylinder and the gun certainly will not "shoot loose" any faster than a model 29.

I wouldn't worry about wearing out my guns if I stepped up my loads another 100fps, but to me it is kind of pointless.

Anything I shoot with my 45 colt load at 100yds is going to be just as dead as anything I shoot at that range with another 100fps OR a 44 mag. The extra 100fps velocity would save me about a whole inch between at 150 yds over 100yds. Maybe 4" at 200yds. Whoopee, as I sure can't hold with in a inch at 150 yds with a 5" gun in hunting situations and just how many guys can hold a 4" group at 200yds with a revolver in the field??? Plus, even so, if by the time your able to do that, you sure should have figured out the hold over factor.

 

[AJ]

Who ever owns those horses should be stung up. They have been either starved or in serious need of medical care.

But, on the 45 colt consider this.

Instead of looking at mass x velocity squared for an energy factor, look at frontal area, mass and velocity.

.452x.452x3.14=.642x260=167x1000=167,000

.429x.429x3.14=.578x240=139x1300=187,000

which still gives the 44 mag a 10% advantage

as apposed to
45 colt 260x1000x1000=260,000,000/450,240=578ft lb

44 mag 240x1300x1300=405,600,000/450,240=901ft lb

I simply fail to believe that a 44 mag will do 36% more damage than a 45 colt. A big hole is a big hole.

Here is another little fact for the Ruger fans. Ruger's large cylinder is 1.672 in diameter. An N frame Smith has a 1.664 dia cylinder. thats a difference of .008 or about the same as a barrel to cylinder gap. It does have a slightly offset notch though. The frame is also built to take the punishment better, But a model 25 has the exact same frame as a model 29 44 mag. If you stay below the same pressures as a 45acp+P you will never blow up a model 25 45 colt cylinder and the gun certainly will not "shoot loose" any faster than a model 29.

I wouldn't worry about wearing out my guns if I stepped up my loads another 100fps, but to me it is kind of pointless.

Anything I shoot with my 45 colt load at 100yds is going to be just as dead as anything I shoot at that range with another 100fps OR a 44 mag. The extra 100fps velocity would save me about a whole inch between at 150 yds over 100yds. Maybe 4" at 200yds. Whoopee, as I sure can't hold with in a inch at 150 yds with a 5" gun in hunting situations and just how many guys can hold a 4" group at 200yds with a revolver in the field??? Plus, even so, if by the time your able to do that, you sure should have figured out the hold over factor.

Jarhead, you got to much time on your hands to do all that figuring! Just put the hole where they taught you in Boot Camp and the subject is over with no matter the size of the hole. However, I too, prefer the .45 anything over a .44 anything.

AJ

 

[steelslaver]

But, I like math. I was putting holes in the right place before boot camp.

 

[BLUEDOT37]

They list 13.0 grs of Blue Dot with a 260 gr Speer JHP. So that same load with a cast bullet should be safe...
...as the tech at Alliant told me that using the load data for the Speer 255 swc was fine with cast.
Alliants listing for a 250 cast bullet RNFP is showing only one powder BE-86 . This info is right off their website .
Where did you get your data as I don't see it on Alliants website

Correct on the Blue Dot load but not on the 9.5gr Unique load you referenced.

Their (Speer) 255gr L-SWC bullet is a hard cast lead. Their 250gr L-SWC bullet is soft swaged.

If it was okay to use the (higher) soft swaged bullet data with the hard cast bullet why are they on different pages with different max. loads?

No 260gr JHP load data for Unique but a 250gr GDHP has a 7.8gr Unique max charge for standard pressure 45 Colt.

9.5gr/Unique with a 250gr GDHP is basically starting "Ruger Only" (9.8gr) load data.

All my referenced load data in post #29 is from Speer Reloading Manual #14.

Their website has limited data.

You can see difference in the Speer 250gr GDHP & swaged 250gr L-SWC Unique load data here:
Speer Reloading - Handgun Data

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[cowboy4evr]

In my Lyman manual , they too list a 8.5gr of Unique as max with the Lyman 452454 , the Keith bullet . But --- they go on to say that they are crimping it over the front driving band , not in the crimp groove . Hence the reduced load of Unique . The lyman 454190 has no crimp groove so they crimped on the ogive , showing a max load of 9.0 grs of Unique . Both bullets are listed @ 250 grs . So there is quite a bit of difference in load data from different sources . I will agree that personally , I feel that 8.5 grs of Unique is a better load , esp in the old Colt SAA or Colt clones . Regards Paul

 

[AJ]

The U.S.Military asked for a revolver to supplant the M1873s used in the Philippines in 1909. This brought about the Colt M1909 U.S.Army (Navy and Marine model as well). The spec's for the round were 250 grain slug at 725 FPS which is a reduced load. If they felt it was good enough for combat then what's the fuss now? American Rifleman | Last of Its Kind: The USMC Model 1909 Colt

I shoot my Colt M1909 on a fairly regular basis.

For this loading I use 5.6 grains of Bullseye with the 250 grain slug.

In my Lyman manual , they too list a 8.5gr of Unique as max with the Lyman 452454 , the Keith bullet . But --- they go on to say that they are crimping it over the front driving band , not in the crimp groove . Hence the reduced load of Unique . The lyman 454190 has no crimp groove so they crimped on the ogive , showing a max load of 9.0 grs of Unique . Both bullets are listed @ 250 grs . So there is quite a bit of difference in load data from different sources . I will agree that personally , I feel that 8.5 grs of Unique is a better load , esp in the old Colt SAA or Colt clones . Regards Paul

For old Colts use the loading that I referenced above. If it was good enough to use in 1909 it is good enough today and will not overstress the older guns.