That one is a real beaut Tom...
.455 British Svc Revolver Research Thread
- Thread starter Hondo44
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44wheelman
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Jim, for your list; I have TL #12750 (your category 4)
Marked Smith & Wesson .455. No British stamps.
Regards
Marked Smith & Wesson .455. No British stamps.
Regards
OP
Thank you.
I agree, a 4th variation, produced in 1916 and one of 325 shipped to Shapleigh Hardware, St Louis, MO on December 29, 1917.
The factory specified case hardening for the third-latch plate. If you see a blued Triple-Lock with a blued plate, it should be considered evidence of a refinish.
Really nice specimen.
Scrumbag
Member
Don't know if this helps - LINK REMOVED AS APPARENTLY A NO-NO
Scrummy
Scrummy
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OP
Thank you, it does. Added to the study.
dsf
Member
Have posted elsewhere, however to add to the listing -
Serial #64344 from Shapleigh Dec 1917 IIRC. No British markings, still in .455. Bought it off GB from a small store it Kansas - am guessing the gun wasn't all that well traveled.
Serial #64344 from Shapleigh Dec 1917 IIRC. No British markings, still in .455. Bought it off GB from a small store it Kansas - am guessing the gun wasn't all that well traveled.
OP
Hugh,
Yes! But is it stamped with any British Military, proof, import, or export marks?
THERE ARE FOUR BASIC VERSIONS OF .455 chambered Hand Ejector revolvers made by S&W under contract to the British for WW I. Three of the versions, 1., 2., & 4. include some triple locks, but those in the 4th group are actually the same as 1st versions. "If" roll marked with the cal., all that are roll marked are only marked 455 because all versions are actually reamed to also chamber the longer 455 MK I cartridge per the British contract. Therefore the 'book' references to caliber marking of 455 Mark II for all versions of S&W 455 chambered revolvers is a bit of a misnomer.
This is not be confused with the British revolver name "MK II" for the "455 Mark II HE – 2nd Model", which the British stamped "II" on the left rear frame of the revolvers and are known as such by them.
Note: The WWI British contract Colt revolver is marked ".455 ELEY", different than the S&W 455 marking.
Revolver markings vary greatly depending on the country of use, military units where they were used, and when/where they were imported, proofed, exported, etc.
There were other ways for these to make their way across the Big Pond to Britain besides thru the usual Remington route; first across the border to Canada, or originally sold here in the states on the retail market and then immigrated somewhere else as evidenced by various and assorted non - USA import, export, approval, or proof stamps. Stamps also vary contingent upon how any particular revolver made the "trip(s)", official vs. unofficial channels, and how long after WWI because stamping protocol changed over time.
Yours is the 2nd version: ".455 Mark II HE - 1st Model TL" in the new .455 British serial # range 1 to at least 5800* shipped 1914-15. Thus creating 67** duplicate serial #s with the 666 1st version in the ".44 HE 1st Model TL" .455 factory conversion serial number range.
*Previously reported as 0 to 5461. After this shipment there were some of this model sold commercially all in the 5502 - 5857 range, but including a few military issues in that range as well.
**There are 67 possible duplicates of TL #s of the existing 666 military shipped contract listed numbers of .44 HE 1st Model TLs factory converted to .455 (1st version above), #s 1104-5755 in the .44 HE # range (not all inclusive, known and listed [S&W 1857 – 1945 pgs. 204-205]), with 67 of the .455 HE 1st Model TLs (2nd version) #s 1 to 5800 in the Brit contract # range. Yours is not one of those.
There can be ~ 4988 .44 TLs duplicated serial #s with .455 TLs.
Which method was it converted to 45 Colt: recessed chamber mouths, shave rear cyl face, or shaved recoil shield?
Yes! But is it stamped with any British Military, proof, import, or export marks?
THERE ARE FOUR BASIC VERSIONS OF .455 chambered Hand Ejector revolvers made by S&W under contract to the British for WW I. Three of the versions, 1., 2., & 4. include some triple locks, but those in the 4th group are actually the same as 1st versions. "If" roll marked with the cal., all that are roll marked are only marked 455 because all versions are actually reamed to also chamber the longer 455 MK I cartridge per the British contract. Therefore the 'book' references to caliber marking of 455 Mark II for all versions of S&W 455 chambered revolvers is a bit of a misnomer.
This is not be confused with the British revolver name "MK II" for the "455 Mark II HE – 2nd Model", which the British stamped "II" on the left rear frame of the revolvers and are known as such by them.
Note: The WWI British contract Colt revolver is marked ".455 ELEY", different than the S&W 455 marking.
Revolver markings vary greatly depending on the country of use, military units where they were used, and when/where they were imported, proofed, exported, etc.
There were other ways for these to make their way across the Big Pond to Britain besides thru the usual Remington route; first across the border to Canada, or originally sold here in the states on the retail market and then immigrated somewhere else as evidenced by various and assorted non - USA import, export, approval, or proof stamps. Stamps also vary contingent upon how any particular revolver made the "trip(s)", official vs. unofficial channels, and how long after WWI because stamping protocol changed over time.
Yours is the 2nd version: ".455 Mark II HE - 1st Model TL" in the new .455 British serial # range 1 to at least 5800* shipped 1914-15. Thus creating 67** duplicate serial #s with the 666 1st version in the ".44 HE 1st Model TL" .455 factory conversion serial number range.
*Previously reported as 0 to 5461. After this shipment there were some of this model sold commercially all in the 5502 - 5857 range, but including a few military issues in that range as well.
**There are 67 possible duplicates of TL #s of the existing 666 military shipped contract listed numbers of .44 HE 1st Model TLs factory converted to .455 (1st version above), #s 1104-5755 in the .44 HE # range (not all inclusive, known and listed [S&W 1857 – 1945 pgs. 204-205]), with 67 of the .455 HE 1st Model TLs (2nd version) #s 1 to 5800 in the Brit contract # range. Yours is not one of those.
There can be ~ 4988 .44 TLs duplicated serial #s with .455 TLs.
Which method was it converted to 45 Colt: recessed chamber mouths, shave rear cyl face, or shaved recoil shield?
OP
Thank you for the additional info. You clearly have an example of an overrun gun sold here in the states and almost assuredly it never left. A great find for a non-military collector or a shooter.
Well, not shaving the cyl is a plus on those converted guns and usually will still shoot .455 because of the long firing pins used back then, if you ever find any.
Well, not shaving the cyl is a plus on those converted guns and usually will still shoot .455 because of the long firing pins used back then, if you ever find any.
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Triple Lock No 2934, no factory markings on barrel
2nd model No 30825, marked "Smith & Wesson .455" on the barrel
Lot Detail - (C) LOT OF 2: SMITH & WESSON .455 WEBLEY DOUBLE ACTION REVOLVERS.
2nd model No 30825, marked "Smith & Wesson .455" on the barrel
Lot Detail - (C) LOT OF 2: SMITH & WESSON .455 WEBLEY DOUBLE ACTION REVOLVERS.
lamarw
Member
I picked up a couple of more this afternoon to make for a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Years. One is a .455 Mark II Hand Ejector 1st Model Triple Lock and the other is a .455 Mark II Hand Ejector 2nd Model. They both look presentable from the auction house pictures. The triple lock has the wrong stocks and the 2nd Model is missing the lanyard ring. I have a spare lanyard ring but will be looking for the proper stocks for the triple lock in case anyone can part with a set. I will provide more for Hondo's data base once I receive the revolvers. The triple lock serial number is 2934 and the 2nd Model SN is 30825.
Below are a few pictures.
OOPS! I missed the post above from MRCVS.
Below are a few pictures.
OOPS! I missed the post above from MRCVS.
Attachments
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Hello. I have a hand ejector smith revolver serial number 33814. Fixed sight. The barrel is about 6". The barrel, cylinder and but plate all have the matching numbers. Forgive me I'm old and can't see without a device and I know nothing about this gun. It was an old family members gun. I've read a bit here. The cylinder aft has the numbers very clearly stamped and what appears to be crossed flags. The are BP and other turkey prints and proof marks all over this gun. The cylinder holes look uniform. Here's the catch. On the barrel just aft of the smith and Wesson stamp is .455 (However) the last numeral 5 seems to have been buffed off leaving a silver smooth spot. Thus, to the eye it says .45 scuff. It's a beautiful gun. And I bought some modern fiochi 455 and fired it here at my Ozark farm home and I have no neighbors just dogs who snore during gunfire also with proper protection. It seems to function just delightfully. And the shell casings ejected nicely. Any information would be greatly appreciated. I'd like to use it as my dedicated gun for my 1959 willys pickup that's all I drive. Is there something I'm unaware of with this removed last digit 5. It does not appear to be accidentally done. Thank you so much if I hear back. Thanks as well if I don't. I understand. I only know double barrels and my Winchester trapper.
Oh, it has a d ring on the but. I've never seen such a nice fitting and smooth well put together gun. I found it greased in wax paper in my uncles hat box,it's getting cold and rainy in the hills and I misplaced my hat and needed a hat and found a gun instead. I stayed in all day cleaning and coonfingering the thing. He died in 1962 in Asia. He's buried here next to the rest.
Thank you,
Arlan
Oh, it has a d ring on the but. I've never seen such a nice fitting and smooth well put together gun. I found it greased in wax paper in my uncles hat box,it's getting cold and rainy in the hills and I misplaced my hat and needed a hat and found a gun instead. I stayed in all day cleaning and coonfingering the thing. He died in 1962 in Asia. He's buried here next to the rest.
Thank you,
Arlan
Arlan, if you can post clear pictures of this gun, I know it will help in identifying it...Besides we just like pitchers of purdy guns...
...Ben
...Ben
OP
lamarw & mrcvs,
Thank you both for the additions to the research study!
Congrats!! Those are both extremely nice examples at a very fair price!
The Triple Lock has the wrong stocks, it's true. But they are much more scarce, worth more than the correct stocks, and are from the 1930s with flat silver medallions. The correct stocks with recessed gold plated medallions are not hard to find since there were ~90,000 produced.
It's misrepresented in the auction description as being in the 44 HE 1st model serial range of 15,000. But it's actually #2934 British Svc Revolver serial range of the 2nd version:
".455 Mark II HE - 1st Model TL" in the new .455 British serial # range 1 to over 5800* shipped 1914-15. Thus creating 67 duplicate serial #s with the 666 1st version in #1. above in the ".44 HE 1st Model TL" .455 factory conversion serial number range.
*Previously reported as 1 to 5461. After this shipment there were some of this model sold commercially all in the 5502 - 5857 range, but including a few military issues in that range as well.
The revolver #30825 BSR of the 3rd version:
3. ".455 Mark II HE - 2nd Model" (sans extractor barrel shroud and 3rd lock), and the cylinder ctr pin hole in the extractor star is reduced .020" with the associated Ext Rod rear tip reduced .020" in diameter from the TL versions, the ".44 HE 1st Model Triple Lock" factory converted to .455, and the ".455 HE 1st Model Triple Lock" produced in .455 (documented in Neal & Jinks Pg. 215-16.) This version was referred to as the MK II revolver by the British and stamped 'II' by them, upper left rear side of frame. The 2nd Model continued in the .455 1st Model TL Brit serial range and beginning ~ after #5857 (previously thought to be 5462) to #74755, shipped 1915-17.
The grips don't fit properly and may be off the TL; check penciled serial # on the back of the right grip to verify if it matches the TL #2934.
It's interesting that both are stamped "Simpson LTD" on the butt.
I want to point out that Arlan has a duplicate post in this thread.
OP
Arlan,
Welcome to this forum!
What a wonderful surprise to find in a hat box! Congrats! An early Christmas for you wasn't it?
You have a S&W contract British Service Revolver ".455 Hand Ejector - 2nd Model". Shipped in 1916.
Whenever I hear of the 5 in .455 being removed, that's usually a dead giveaway that the gun was converted to shoot .45 Colt, sometimes .45 Auto. But since you were able to fire .455 ammo, this is very common when converted to .45 Colt! If you have a Colt cartridge insert it in the cyl to verify it will chamber properly. Since the rear face of the cyl does have the serial # stamped on it, that's another indication the recoil shield was "shaved" to allow for shooting the .45 Colt. Or if the chamber mouths are slightly recessed for Colt case rims and the .455 rims do not fit in them.
We'd love to see photos!
Thank you so much. I might have a visitor who brought me this computer and she may help me add photos. Right now I was wondering if it's OK to use this gun with the 455 rounds I have. Not for shooting a lot. Just to have in case in my truck.
My best friend Linden has a 45 that he had in Normandy. All he's ever said is that the sea water turned red. He's 95-7 I think. His wife died last week she was 93 and I helped him bury her at his place. There were two young fellas watching us from behind trees up in the timber. One had his whole face tattoos. Linden said they were meth heads and have been cooking up there. Linden wears his 45. I'd like to wear my uncles gun I found. I've made a holster for it already. These guys have a pickup with no glass left in it up there. Linden and I are going to drop some trees across the old login road so they can't get back up there anymore. They have no business being up there it's lindens property.
I don't want to shoot anyone and if I had to it would be my dads old 94 30-30. But I'm just asking this 455 gun is in beautiful condition being modified and all in one who knows opinions is it safe to shoot the 455s in it. I liked the way it shot with the 455s. A different sound. Not loud. Hardly any kick and grouped at 50 yards. I understand what I'm asking. And what I am not asking is that you boys can say I can or should use this gun for self defense. Today I put a 455 fiochi in the cylinder and examined it with my magnifier and it fit the recess perfectly like a mouses ear. It's a fine gun with no scratches even. A deep blue and fits my damaged hand perfectly.
Linden has 500 acres of mostly timber I have 400 adjoining his some cattle and fescue pasture. I told him it's like a circus train crashed somewhere and the fellas that survived crawled up here.
Thank you very much.
Arlan
My best friend Linden has a 45 that he had in Normandy. All he's ever said is that the sea water turned red. He's 95-7 I think. His wife died last week she was 93 and I helped him bury her at his place. There were two young fellas watching us from behind trees up in the timber. One had his whole face tattoos. Linden said they were meth heads and have been cooking up there. Linden wears his 45. I'd like to wear my uncles gun I found. I've made a holster for it already. These guys have a pickup with no glass left in it up there. Linden and I are going to drop some trees across the old login road so they can't get back up there anymore. They have no business being up there it's lindens property.
I don't want to shoot anyone and if I had to it would be my dads old 94 30-30. But I'm just asking this 455 gun is in beautiful condition being modified and all in one who knows opinions is it safe to shoot the 455s in it. I liked the way it shot with the 455s. A different sound. Not loud. Hardly any kick and grouped at 50 yards. I understand what I'm asking. And what I am not asking is that you boys can say I can or should use this gun for self defense. Today I put a 455 fiochi in the cylinder and examined it with my magnifier and it fit the recess perfectly like a mouses ear. It's a fine gun with no scratches even. A deep blue and fits my damaged hand perfectly.
Linden has 500 acres of mostly timber I have 400 adjoining his some cattle and fescue pasture. I told him it's like a circus train crashed somewhere and the fellas that survived crawled up here.
Thank you very much.
Arlan
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