.455 British Svc Revolver Research Thread

wiley said:
Not best pics, and I couldn't figure a way to shoot rear face of crane, which has the same #8345. Same with rear face of extractor, it is #54795.
I believe the #8345 number on the frame is the s/n because of location. Regards,
Wiley
Click to expand...

Well that was easy. The butt photo says it all, no more mystery.

The first mistake was using the assembly # to restamp the butt and a little crooked from a factory stamping.

The 2nd and worst mistake was; the # is stamped upside down and on the wrong side of the lanyard swivel! A lead pipe cinch it's been restamped!

3rd mistake was also stamping the 8345 on the yoke face.

Until 1942 serial #s on the butt read right side up with muzzle to the right.
After that they read correctly with muzzle to the left like yours.

The face of the yoke is restamped as well. The gun may also or may not have a replaced barrel, cyl/extractor star, and yoke, not original to the gun.

If original to the frame, the side plate will have the 8345 assembly # on the inside.

Can you find a penciled # on the inside of right grip with good light and magnification? That may have the frame's original serial #. At least it'll tell you if barrel and cyl are original.
 
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The #8345 does appear in the recess for the hand. LH grip doesn't show much, it's split on the back side and has had sanding done for what ever purpose. Same with the right grip, although there is an 03 stamped in it next to the screw hole. I tend to suppose that it is a Canadian gun, even though the mark is mostly obliterated, and that it was rebuilt with a new barrel, extractor and cylinder.
 

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Here is a .44spl TL, but with a .455 connection. The letter mentions a group of .455s from 1910, which I presume would be commercial, but your database shows nothing in that s/n range. I have asked SWHF for any info on the group and will pass on any results.

gCZ42MU.jpg

VVyt5ZM.jpg


Bob
 
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Thank you Bob,

That's a very special 44 TL Military Target -1st Model, factory chambered for the 455 Mk II/Webley cartridge as confirmed in the letter.

The unusual target sight arrangement is well known albeit not common on the TL. They're often referred to as Bisley, (England) Match revolvers. The target sights are specifically to meet a Bisley Match rule, which disallowed fully adjustable rear target sights, and I'm a bit disappointed that this was not mentioned in this particular letter.

What is the date on the letter, as it reads like an older letter?

Because of it's semi-target configuration, very early shipping date, and shipping destination, it clearly has no relationship to the British military contract revolver orders which came about 4 years later.

The "military" part of the military target description refers only to S&Ws official name for this model with fixed sights: "44 Military Model of 1908".

You're correct, I have no other examples from this group of revolvers that shipped together, but I do have a category "0", to which yours has been added, for all other 44 TL revolvers factory chambered in 455, prior to or during British military orders, but not known to be within the BSR 44 or 455 military serial # ranges that shipped under the contract.

I suspect this group of military target models were ordered by Robinson for US target shooters to compete at Bisley, or possibly by a British team. Although if for English shooters, any that made it across the 'big pond' would likely show Civilian acceptance/proof marks. Yours apparently never left the USA shores, however, except perhaps in a US competitor's shooting bag.

That's not to say that none of these were scooped up by the British Purchasing Commission (as they did myriad US firearms) to eventually end up in the WW I conflict whether on the battlefield or with the English home guard.
 
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Jim,

This gun is in caliber .44Spl (not marked on the barrel, but verified). I posted in this thread because of the .455 association in the letter. No British proofs on the frame; the cylinder is a replacement. Possibly an American competitor at Bisley? The letter is from 2000. I hope SWHF has more information available than Roy did at that time.

Bob
 
Hi Bob,

Hmmm, well if not serial numbered on the barrel obviously it's not original along with the cylinder, so I agree they've been replaced, but not by the factory. The revolver most likely was in 455. Yes, possibly an American Bisley competitor that knew the 44 Spl inherent accuracy advantage over the 455.

As stated in the letter, the caliber was not indicated on the shipping record/invoice, so the original caliber will not likely come from Roy. But when the 2000 letter you have was written, I didn't get the impression Roy was told that the barrel and cyl were 44 with no or none matching numbers. So a new letter might be interesting given that knowledge and the 18 years of additional knowledge Roy has obtained.

I too hope the SWHF may have more info, but I'm not encouraged because the archives aren't digitized for all years. And they'd only have info on work the factory did, and we know the barrel and cyl are 44 with no or none matching numbers which confirms it was not done at the factory. But worth a try because if nothing is found, it won't cost you anything.

Robinson's old records if they still exist may be the best source of your revolver's original configuration or changes if Robinson was tasked with getting that work done for a customer, at a local gunsmith they used.

By the way, that .44 7 1/2" barrel is a scarce one!
 
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Jim,

The barrel is not caliber marked, which is unusual (unheard of?) for a .44spl. But it is serial numbered to the butt, and fired .44spl bullets show no slippage as they would if fired from an oversized barrel. I hope SWHF has further info on this and the .455s from the same group.

Bob
 
Sorry, I mis-understood about the barrel being serial numbered. That's good, so just the cyl doesn't match.

And yes, very unusual for a 44 barrel not to be caliber marked.
 
Jim,

Just found something else, unfortunately with no serial numbers. This came from the notes of the person I bought mine from. It is from Larry/dbwesson to Joe Miller on the old forum. Someone who has a copy of his survivors database may be able to provide s/n.

VfynrSp.jpg
 
Very interesting.

Since your gun was shipped almost 2 years later, it could very well have been an extra one of those earlier frames (also called an 'over-run' frame) with the 'military target' sight, i.e., Bisley Match sight, but assembled as a 44.

Roy's letter does indicate the sights are factory in his letter above. And even states it was manufactured in a group of 455 guns, but he didn't say it shipped with them. I think his assumption that yours was a 455 was based on that, but an incorrect assumption since yours is an original 44, or factory converted to 44 2 years later when an order came in for a Bisley sighted 44 Spl.

How about some close up photos of the rear sight; top and side view?
 
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I have a mark I Triple Lock 455 Roll marked on left side of barrel Smith & Wesson 455 serial # 12902. No British proof marks.
I also have a Mark II HE with British proof marks roll marked on left side of Barrel Smith & Wesson 455. Serial #43429 it has been converted to 45 ACP.
 
Jim, I received my reply for #15055 triple lock, .455 cal. It is one of the 160 units shipped to Shapleigh Hardware on Dec. 29th, 1917. This date is neat to me for that is only four months after my father was born! He passed away at 93 years old a few years back. It was one of the 160 contract revolvers built for the English Government, but not delivered. They were sold out of inventory to meet the demand for large caliber revolvers at the beginning of WW1. If you wish some photos of the revolver, with the help of my wife I can probably send some off to you. Best regards, JM
 
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JMtoolman said:
Jim, I received my reply for #15055 triple lock, .455 cal. It is one of the 160 units shipped to Shapleigh Hardware on Dec. 29th, 1917. This date is neat to me for that is only four months after my father was born! He passed away at 93 years old a few years back. It was one of the 160 contract revolvers built for the English Government, but not delivered. They were sold out of inventory to meet the demand for large caliber revolvers at the beginning of WW1. If you wish some photos of the revolver, with the help of my wife I can probably send some off to you. Best regards, JM
Click to expand...

Awesome! Thx very much and congrats! Not many of those confirmed. I added it to the updated study info post above.
 
Second Model, S/N 36804 roll stamped 'Smith & Wesson .455' on LHS of barrel.

Crossed pennants on yoke, stamp on butt. No other markings.
 
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younggun22 said:
I recently picked up serial number 489 and the barrel lacks a caliber roll mark.

If am missing any info let me know!
Click to expand...

Thank you, it's the 3rd lowest s/n in my database.

It's a version 2 Triple Lock:

2. ".455 Mark II HE - 1st Model TL" in the new .455 British serial # range 1 to ~5800 [H of S&W pg. 201] assembled 1914-15. Thus creating 63 duplicate serial #s with the 666 1st version in #1. above in the ".44 HE 1st Model TL" .455 conversion serial number range.
 
I have a .455 Hand Ejector MK.II #16872 that was shipped to Remington Arms on Sept. 23, 1915. It has no caliber roll marking but does exhibit the usual Enfield inspector's mark on the rear L/S frame plus the crossed pennant mark on the barrel re-enforce, same side.

The gun was given to me by a late friend in England who sent it over here to avoid surrendering it to his government in 1998.
 
.455 Mk II s/n 41893

Jim,

Thanks for your efforts . . . please include in your study data the following .455 Mk II s/n 41893 that shipped February 3, 1916 to Remington UMC for the British Government. It does not have a factory caliber stamp but is stamped on the left side of the barrel .45 COLT by whoever did the caliber conversion.

Russ
 

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linde said:
Jim,

Thanks for your efforts . . . please include in your study data the following .455 Mk II s/n 41893 that shipped February 3, 1916 to Remington UMC for the British Government. It does not have a factory caliber stamp but is stamped on the left side of the barrel .45 COLT by whoever did the caliber conversion.

Russ
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Yes it's there in group 3. It surely was marked 455 because it's in the middle of the period when they all were. It looks like it was removed, the nice 45 Colt stamp added and then cold blued which has worn off.
 
Mk II HE SN 5907

This should help you pin down the early end of your third category of .455 Hand Ejector. SN 5907, caliber .455 Colt/Eley/Webley Mk I but no caliber marking; crossed pennants on left frame ahead of cylinder and on back of cylinder, small broad arrow and British proof on left side of knuckle. Finish is mostly gone to brown, but great mechanics and bore.

--DJ
 
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