OP
Thank you. Those are unit markings for which unit it was issued to and the British crown stamp. The II stands for the British designation for the 2nd model, Mark II.
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.455 British Svc Revolver Research Thread
- Thread starter Hondo44
- Start date
Y'all shouldn't let the dawg use a S&W as a chew toy. 
The way I understand those markings from Pate's US Handguns of WWII is the top arrow stamp is called the "broad arrow" and signifies government ownership of the weapon. Below that is the military inspector's mark that usually consists of a crown over a number/letter combination signifying the inspector and his/her location. In the case above, E is for the Royal Small Arms Factory at Enfield. And finally, the II, as Jim states, is for the 2nd model S&W .455 hand ejector.
Somewhere on the gun there should be a "sold out of service" stamp which is two broad arrows positioned tip to tip. If it is missing, then the gun likely made its way here by a different route than through normal surplus import.
Absalom
SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
If we're talking about the second gun in post #330, it also has the "crown/30" Canadian acceptance mark on the butt.
Since transfer to Canadian service usually happened after acceptance at Enfield and British service, the gun may not have opposing broad arrows; the Canadians didn't usually stamp them when they were surplused.
Since transfer to Canadian service usually happened after acceptance at Enfield and British service, the gun may not have opposing broad arrows; the Canadians didn't usually stamp them when they were surplused.
flightlessgreeb
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Thats the exact kind of info I was interested in - thanks so much! I have a lot of family in Canada so that's a neat connection for sure.
Bucher33
Member
455 Hand Ejector 2nd Model Serial # 33764 on butt Roll marked left side of barrel SMITH & WESSON .455. Cylinder shaved for .45 ACP w/ moon clips and barrel cut to 4" Only marks are crossed pendants and broad arrow in Canadian C. Side note: This revolver was given to my mother in late 1953 from a family friend named George Kilgore who carried it through the Korean Conflict as a personal sidearm.
StrawHat
Member
As much as I personally like a 4", 45 ACP, N frame, please be aware that the 45 ACP cartridge is comparable to a proof load in these non heat treated cylinders.
Kevin
OP
I would stick to 45 Auto Rim because they are loaded to 455 pressures (~15,000) and not the ACP pressures of 19-21,000 required to operate the slide of the 1911, it's intended handgun. The S&W Model 1917 that ACP was used in has a heat treated cyl. The 455 does not.
Or if AR doesn't fire reliable (the 455 chamber shoulder is too far down the chamber to headspace on), you can reload ACP brass to 45 AR pressures so you can use the moon clips.
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Historical letter for TL sn 5755 - one of 67 .455 TL with SN that w
This was the Triple lock sn 5755 noted earlier to be in the duplicate number range. According to Hondo44 (page 6 post #259) "It is one of the rare 67 .455 Triple Lock #s that was used twice."
Hondo44 lists 2 ways to tell which revolver category this one is in. On inspection, It is not drilled through the sn and has no military markings, so is likely a category 2.
Just received the Jinks Letter on this one, which talks about the 2 revolvers receiving this sn and agrees it is likely the one in the commercial .455 range.
Pics of the revolver are at post #279 and #280.
Did a search all the numbers 5756 to 5776 on this forum and did not find any of the other revolvers in this shipment documented here. As the letter does not have an address for Colonel E. M. Edwards, not sure if this was a shipment to Canada (where this revolver was recently purchased), the UK or somewhere in the USA. Any info welcome.
Colonel E. M. Edwards does not show up in the "Library and Archives Canada - Personnel Records of the First World War".
Thanks
This was the Triple lock sn 5755 noted earlier to be in the duplicate number range. According to Hondo44 (page 6 post #259) "It is one of the rare 67 .455 Triple Lock #s that was used twice."
Hondo44 lists 2 ways to tell which revolver category this one is in. On inspection, It is not drilled through the sn and has no military markings, so is likely a category 2.
Just received the Jinks Letter on this one, which talks about the 2 revolvers receiving this sn and agrees it is likely the one in the commercial .455 range.
Pics of the revolver are at post #279 and #280.
Did a search all the numbers 5756 to 5776 on this forum and did not find any of the other revolvers in this shipment documented here. As the letter does not have an address for Colonel E. M. Edwards, not sure if this was a shipment to Canada (where this revolver was recently purchased), the UK or somewhere in the USA. Any info welcome.
Colonel E. M. Edwards does not show up in the "Library and Archives Canada - Personnel Records of the First World War".
Thanks
OP
Congratulations!!
Thanks for showing the letter. It's a great letter and actually authenticates both revolvers with duplicated #5755. I waited a long time for one of a pair of the rare duplicates to finally show up and to also be lettered! Now I wait for the Category 1 gun #5755 to show up some day.
By the way, back in your post #280 you pictured the middle lock latch and asked why it's not blued? I don't think you got an answer. It's color case hardened like the hammer and trigger from the factory. And a great indication that it has original finish and has not been refinished!
Thanks for showing the letter. It's a great letter and actually authenticates both revolvers with duplicated #5755. I waited a long time for one of a pair of the rare duplicates to finally show up and to also be lettered! Now I wait for the Category 1 gun #5755 to show up some day.
By the way, back in your post #280 you pictured the middle lock latch and asked why it's not blued? I don't think you got an answer. It's color case hardened like the hammer and trigger from the factory. And a great indication that it has original finish and has not been refinished!
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I went ahead and got that letter, take a gander. Thanks to the post office, it already has that authentic crumpled look that many old letters have.
Attachments
OP
Thank you for sharing the letter! We never know for sure until verified by a letter; well worth it!
Ahh, thank you USPS! You can iron it on a flat surface with the iron set to the lowest heat setting!
Ahh, thank you USPS! You can iron it on a flat surface with the iron set to the lowest heat setting!
Hondo44
One more for your list .455, 12646, lettered as, shipped to Bigelow & Co December 6th 1916. British military marked and British commercial proofs.
You have 12996 listed the same as above but this serial number was a typo and the actual serial number we now know is 12496. (12996 may well have been one of the 300 guns in the shipment, but we do not know this for sure.)
Regards
Alan
One more for your list .455, 12646, lettered as, shipped to Bigelow & Co December 6th 1916. British military marked and British commercial proofs.
You have 12996 listed the same as above but this serial number was a typo and the actual serial number we now know is 12496. (12996 may well have been one of the 300 guns in the shipment, but we do not know this for sure.)
Regards
Alan
OP
Thank you Alan,
Correct, I shouldn't have updated my database with that temporary listing. In this thread, page 5, post #223 has been updated today, 9/13/21.
Correct, I shouldn't have updated my database with that temporary listing. In this thread, page 5, post #223 has been updated today, 9/13/21.
For anyone that's interested I recently counted up the sales S&W 1st Model .455 HE revolvers made by the Army & Navy Co-operative Stores Society, in 1914 to 1915. I photographed the ledger pages which are held by Glasgow University in Scotland, some years ago.
It came to a much higher figure that I thought; 625 revolvers.
First sales were in December 1914 with most of the sales being in 1915 with the last sales being in August 1915. Only 8 2nd model .455's were sold sporadically in 1916 including at least one second hand one. Obviously after August 1915 The Army & Navy Co-op Stores could not longer get any more .455's to sell in quantity.
As I say I was surprised that the figure of 625 is so high.
regards
AlanD
.
It came to a much higher figure that I thought; 625 revolvers.
First sales were in December 1914 with most of the sales being in 1915 with the last sales being in August 1915. Only 8 2nd model .455's were sold sporadically in 1916 including at least one second hand one. Obviously after August 1915 The Army & Navy Co-op Stores could not longer get any more .455's to sell in quantity.
As I say I was surprised that the figure of 625 is so high.
regards
AlanD
.
My 2nd model HE, ser. #49,346. Roll marked on left side of barrel for .455. It is stamped Crown/BP and Crown/BV on the barrel, Crown/BV on the frame and the cylinder, but does not have the Mark II stamp at the left rear of the hammer. The grips are not correct. I'd like to find a proper set for it.
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OP
Were these commercial sales to the general public?
OP
Thank you for the information for the database.
From the lack of the MK II stamp and associated stamps in the same location, that is likely a commercially sold example not sold to or used by the military.
Jim
Yes every single one was sold to an individual in the vast majority of cases an officer. None were sold to a government department such as the Ministry of Munitions, War Office or Admiralty. A few of these pistol are known, being in museums or private collections or having come up for sale in auctions in the UK.
i have gone through the ledger books for William Evans Gunmaker, Pall Mall London, for the WW1 period and most of their handgun sales were Webley or Colt with a few other makes, but very few Smith & Wesson revolvers. It would seem the Army & Navy Co-Op Stores collard the market in London with .455 S&W's, during late 1914 up to mid 1915.
Regards
Alan
Yes every single one was sold to an individual in the vast majority of cases an officer. None were sold to a government department such as the Ministry of Munitions, War Office or Admiralty. A few of these pistol are known, being in museums or private collections or having come up for sale in auctions in the UK.
i have gone through the ledger books for William Evans Gunmaker, Pall Mall London, for the WW1 period and most of their handgun sales were Webley or Colt with a few other makes, but very few Smith & Wesson revolvers. It would seem the Army & Navy Co-Op Stores collard the market in London with .455 S&W's, during late 1914 up to mid 1915.
Regards
Alan
Gentleman, I just picked this one up this weekend...
She is well used, mostly brown patina at this point, but IMHO, I like the look...I tend to like the look of a well used gun over a pristine one. I know, I am a bit crazy that way...
So as far as I can tell from my research, she is a 2nd Model Hand Ejector, in .455 part of a Canadian/Brit Contract. S/N is 67087, so I am guessing a late 1916 or 1917 ship date? She has a Canadian Property mark on the left side, and a DCP proof on the barrel flat, and the Crown over 30 mark. Sadly no unit marking.
I'd like to think this one saw some use with the Canadian Army, but it sure saw use somewhere. Sadly, but not surprisingly the cylinder was shaved...since a .45 Colt round will not fit, I assume it was modified for .45 ACP and moon clips. A .455 rund dropped in sticks out a bit, so it looks like she won't shoot them anymore, unlike my shaved Webley which was shaved so, it will fire both.
Saw this on a table this weekend, and had to have it to go with my 1915 Webley and other Commonwealth pistols. Might have to get a letter for this one too.
Hope this helps the effort!
Oh, assembly numbers on crane and frame match, so don't know why the cylinder assembly retains blue...different steel alloy maybe?
She is well used, mostly brown patina at this point, but IMHO, I like the look...I tend to like the look of a well used gun over a pristine one. I know, I am a bit crazy that way...
So as far as I can tell from my research, she is a 2nd Model Hand Ejector, in .455 part of a Canadian/Brit Contract. S/N is 67087, so I am guessing a late 1916 or 1917 ship date? She has a Canadian Property mark on the left side, and a DCP proof on the barrel flat, and the Crown over 30 mark. Sadly no unit marking.
I'd like to think this one saw some use with the Canadian Army, but it sure saw use somewhere. Sadly, but not surprisingly the cylinder was shaved...since a .45 Colt round will not fit, I assume it was modified for .45 ACP and moon clips. A .455 rund dropped in sticks out a bit, so it looks like she won't shoot them anymore, unlike my shaved Webley which was shaved so, it will fire both.
Saw this on a table this weekend, and had to have it to go with my 1915 Webley and other Commonwealth pistols. Might have to get a letter for this one too.
Hope this helps the effort!
Oh, assembly numbers on crane and frame match, so don't know why the cylinder assembly retains blue...different steel alloy maybe?
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OP
Nice original old warhorse, thank you.
Are you still collecting data?
Not mine, but 37891 is a .455 2nd Model HE, known as 'Bapty', with detailed photos here: Indiana Jones and The Raiders of The Lost Ark screen used revolver, The Bapty
I have recently acquired 42266, a 2nd Model HE. Typical patent dates on top, left side of the barrel is rollmarked "Smith & Wesson .455.", then has a crossed pennants mark in line with the barrel just above the yoke. At the back corner above the thumbpiece it has the typical "broad arrow/ crown/ inspector mark/ E/ II" stack. No other added marks: no Birmingham code, no bursting bombs, no double-arrow removal point, no other marks than the serial number on the butt. Serial numbers match, but the one on the back of the cylinder is gone, as the cylinder was cut for ACP moon clips. It's not a safe queen, nothing a collector would want, especially with the cylinder cut: a lot of honest wear, nicks and scratches, bluing worn. (Any other details needed, just ask).
Regards,
-L
Not mine, but 37891 is a .455 2nd Model HE, known as 'Bapty', with detailed photos here: Indiana Jones and The Raiders of The Lost Ark screen used revolver, The Bapty
I have recently acquired 42266, a 2nd Model HE. Typical patent dates on top, left side of the barrel is rollmarked "Smith & Wesson .455.", then has a crossed pennants mark in line with the barrel just above the yoke. At the back corner above the thumbpiece it has the typical "broad arrow/ crown/ inspector mark/ E/ II" stack. No other added marks: no Birmingham code, no bursting bombs, no double-arrow removal point, no other marks than the serial number on the butt. Serial numbers match, but the one on the back of the cylinder is gone, as the cylinder was cut for ACP moon clips. It's not a safe queen, nothing a collector would want, especially with the cylinder cut: a lot of honest wear, nicks and scratches, bluing worn. (Any other details needed, just ask).
Regards,
-L
Interesting that they cut the nose off the firing pin. I presume that's was done intentionally to ensure no tragedies like the recent one on the "Rust' movie set.
Any pictures?
OP
Nice and original.
Looks like the chambers have been counterbored slightly or chamfered. Will the cyl chamber 45 Auto Rim and close? Or 45 Colt?
Your # 2477 is a Type 2 Triple lock, ".455 Mk II Hand Ejector".
Looks like the chambers have been counterbored slightly or chamfered. Will the cyl chamber 45 Auto Rim and close? Or 45 Colt?
Your # 2477 is a Type 2 Triple lock, ".455 Mk II Hand Ejector".
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OK, I'm jumping into this thread so here goes...
I own #4350. No caliber markings anywhere. No modifications or caliber change from original that I can see so I'm guessing it's a .455 caliber and appears to be very British (crossed sword proof marks in usual places on frame).
I own #4350. No caliber markings anywhere. No modifications or caliber change from original that I can see so I'm guessing it's a .455 caliber and appears to be very British (crossed sword proof marks in usual places on frame).
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