.455 caliber puzzle

[coyotejoe]

Howdy, I'm new to this forum but I've been a "gun guy" for at least 70 of my 73 years.
Last weekend at a local gun show I picked up a treasure which has also become a minor pain, you probably know how that goes. At the first table I passed there was this nice old S&W hand ejector and looking at the tag I saw it was a .455 caliber and priced at $1400. Well that was way over my head so I just looked and moved on. Having gone through the show and spent no money I came back around and saw that nice old Smith was now marked .45 Colt and $600. Well that was just within the upper limit of my available funds so I took it home.
Pulling off the S&W magna grips there was heavy pitting under the wood and it was obvious that it had been refinished. This didn't trouble me since I'm no collector and the finish was very nicely done, almost commercial S&W quality. Apparently the refinish had removed the serial number as the only numbers were the assembly numbers on the frame and crane and a very light number 2159 on the sideplate. It originally had a lanyard ring in the butt. The original front sight has been reshaped and a bronze rod attached to provide a bronze bead sight picture and the rear notch in the top strap has also been filed round to fit the front bead. It actually provides a decent sight picture.
The first thing I did was to slug the chamber throats and was disheartened to find they measured .4585". Bummer, I really wanted this to be a shooter. The barrel is 6 1/2" long and the bore is not bright but not too bad either. It should shoot if I could find bullets to fit the chamber throats. I did try 48 rounds, 6 each of 8 different loads using the .452" bullets I had on hand but got nothing I'd even call a group at 25 yards. Clearly the bullets need to fit the chamber throats but where to find .458" bullets lighter than 300 grains is a question.
So I'm asking what do I have here and are there any tricks to make this a shooter?

 

[glowe]

Welcome to the Forum. You have what is called a 455 Mark II, Hand Ejector, Second Model, made mostly for the British Government from 1915 to 1917. There were about 55,000 sent to England and another 14,500 sent to Canada.

Now there are several issues to discuss. First, I have to say the gun was aggressively buffed and looks nothing like a S&W commercial finish. Second, the front sight should be a half moon style, but has been rather crudely altered. Lastly, the original stocks would have been round top diamond walnut service type with gold S&W medallions. It is also missing the lanyard ring on the butt, so should either have a hole or a screw to fill the hole.

As for caliber, the 455 used a .455" 265 grain bullet. Ballistics were not impressive, somewhere around 800 fps. Many of these guns were bored out for 45 Colt ammunition or 45 ACP rounds, so that needs to be checked out. This was probably done by people of varying capabilities, and some were probably crudely done. The cartridge was very short, about 1.23" OAL.

I think you paid quite a bit for your revolver, but if you can find a load that shoots well, these large N frame revolvers are great fun to shoot.

 

[steelslaver]

If the refinish removed the serial number from the bottom of the grip frame your problem is much larger than .458 as that is a big BATF NO NO.
If the grip frame serial number is still there you could cast some bullets from a couple of 454. molds and see what they actually run without sizing. The other option is get a N frame cylinder of the same length and have it reamed.

 

[Drm50]

455 bullets

I had same problem. What I did was use old Ideal 330 hp Gould
bullet for 45 cal rifles, sized 457". Set hollow point pin deep as
practical, coming up with 272gr, slug. I was filling deep hp with
wax. Gun shot as good with out wax. I was only pushing at about
650-700 GPS with Unique powder. At 25 yds gun shoots great.

 

[coyotejoe]

I had same problem. What I did was use old Ideal 330 hp Gould
bullet for 45 cal rifles, sized 457". Set hollow point pin deep as
practical, coming up with 272gr, slug. I was filling deep hp with
wax. Gun shot as good with out wax. I was only pushing at about
650-700 GPS with Unique powder. At 25 yds gun shoots great.

Thanks for the encouragement. A friend is lending me a .454 hollow base mold which I will try first. I'll let you know how it goes.

 

[shouldazagged]

What Steelslayer said: if the serial number has been removed it's illegal to own that gun. It could lead to no end of serious trouble. I would have to contact the seller, demand my money back, and rip him several new orifices for selling a gun he should have known was illegal.

There may be a way to get it renumbered--I don't know about that. But I would want it out of my house yesterday.

 

[22hipower]

If you use the search function you'll find several posts and discussions about the SN removal issue. As has been mentioned, that can be a serious problem with the ATF. The SN should appear several places in addition to the butt; back of cylinder and on the barrel flat are the most obvious. Depending on how the conversion to 45 Colt was done the SN may have been removed from the back of the cylinder. Should still show up on the barrel flat and on the reverse of the ejector star. Anyway, assuming the SN is legible in one of those places you could petition the ATF to allow re-stamping of the SN on the butt or stamp another number assigned by the ATF making your gun legal again. There is some risk that the ATF will confiscate the gun but they've likely got better things to do than worry about the SN of a 100 year old military revolver. Returning the gun to the seller assuming you know who/where he is, is likely the easiest and best solution for you though. Good luck.

Jeff
SWCA #1457

 

[glowe]

The dilemma you now have is not unheard of, since you run across guns without serial numbers from time to time. The key is, as a buyer, not to buy them. Did you do a FFL transaction, or across the table sale at the Gun Show? The seller should have never had the S&W on the table for sale in the first place, but I assume you did have full access to the gun for inspection and bought it without objection? If you know or can contact the seller, I would seek a refund, since the gun is illegal to own and is not worth $600. If there is no satisfaction with the seller, what is next?

A practical option is that since you own the gun, and may now have no plans on selling it, I would establish the serial number from the rear of the cylinder, the flat of the barrel over the ejector rod as Jeff states. Try to find a gunsmith to re-stamp the number on the butt of the gun and at least you have the gun properly identified if stopped along the road to or from the gun range in the future.

This, however, does not take care of the bigger issue and that is if the gun is on a registry of stolen firearms somewhere? Once a serial number is re-established on the butt of the gun, the next option is to take it to local law enforcement for a check of the records. If the S&W is not on a stolen gun roster, it will be returned to you.

Just my opinion.

 

[DWalt]

The best thing, other than getting your money back from the seller, is to not talk about its lack of a SN and do not get caught with it in your possession. The only way to make it legal is to have BATFE assign it a new SN, and that is something you do not want to attempt, unless you have a very good story as to why the original SN was removed. And I'd bet you do not have one. If you for some reason do get caught with it, the most likely outcome is that it simply will be confiscated. But depending upon other factors, you could possibly be charged with a Federal felony.

 

[coyotejoe]

Thanks for the information. The serial numbers on the barrel flat under the ejector rod and on the rear of the cylinder face do match, I hadn't even thought to look there. I will see about getting that number restamped on the butt, after which I don't see why there should be any problems.

 

[deadin]

Here's the problem you can run up against by just "replacing" the serial number; It doesn't change the fact that the original serial has been "removed, obliterated or altered". Only the Feds can authorize or do this.

(k)
It shall be unlawful for any person
knowingly to transport, ship, or receive,
in interstate or foreign commerce, any
firearm which has had the importer's or
manufacturer's serial number removed,
obliterated, or altered or to possess or
receive any firearm which has had the
importer's or manufacturer's serial num
ber removed, obliterated, or altered
and has, at any time, been shipped or
transported in interstate or foreign commerce

 

[austinjeane]

Looks like a nice revolver. Like you I'm a shooter, not necessarily a collector. I shoot 2 revolvers chambered for .455-a Webley WG and a Triple Lock shipped to England in 1914. I load both with a hollow based bullet cast by Western Bullet Company in Montana. The bullet will expand to chamber/bore. I get good results with both bullets. Cases can be bought from Buffalo Arms

 

[dangt]

austinjeane,

Just sent you a P.M. with a query about your Webley WG.

Dan

 

[DWalt]

Here's the problem you can run up against by just "replacing" the serial number; It doesn't change the fact that the original serial has been "removed, obliterated or altered". Only the Feds can authorize or do this.

That is correct. Sure, you might be able to find someone to stamp a number on the grip frame, but that might not be adequate to get you off the hook if you find yourself in hot water. I will assume that your probability of getting caught with it are fairly slim. But if you ever go to sell it, no FFL dealer that knows the BATFE regs will ever touch it at any price. You have essentially a gun with negative value, or at best, the value of its parts.

 

[deadin]

To add to the discussion...using the barrel/cylinder number to replace the removed frame number does not guarantee that the original frame has not had the barrel and cylinder replaced. That's why only the original frame number is the "Official" one.

 

[coyotejoe]

OK, chalk one up for Big Brother, the gun goes back to the seller. And to think some people believe we don't have enough gun control. Thanks to all for the information and advise.

 

[DWalt]

OK, chalk one up for Big Brother, the gun goes back to the seller. And to think some people believe we don't have enough gun control. Thanks to all for the information and advise.

That's the intelligent action to take. No need to take any chances (even slim chances) with your freedom and your bankroll if you can make the problem go away. Let the seller worry about it.

 

[Hondo44]

Did you check under the left grip for the serial number stamped on the left side of the grip frame?

 

[coyotejoe]

Yep, lots of pitting under those grips but no numbers.