.455 S&W

[zzzippper]

I will try to attach pictures later. I saw a Hand Ejector that I think might have been made for some member of the UK. It is in .455 British caliber and has a lanyard ring on it. No markings indicate that it overseas.

The is one odd marking on the left side of the frame. It looks like a broken circle with three lines in it; one pointing down to the left, one pointing down in the middle, and one pointing down to the right. It has plain wooden grips and a half-moon front sight. The rear sight is just a notch.

In the yoke where in modern times I would expect to see the model number are the numbers 6949. On the butt where you might expect to see the serial number is 62792 with no letters. Sorry, I forgot to count the screws.

What can you tell me about this before I post a bad picture?

Edit: I found it in the catalog, nothing special about it except that it is old. It is in good condition though.

 

[DWalt]

Yours is most likely a .455 Hand Ejector, Second Model, probably about 1915-16. It should NOT have a shroud under the barrel around the ejector rod. The British and Canadians used these during WWI. Many were later converted, by several different methods, to fire .45 Colt cartridges. You might want to determine if yours has been. Sorry, I can't help on the marking from your description, possibly Canadian. Theirs was a C with sort of an arrowhead inside.

Amplifying a bit on the 45 Colt conversion, one method was shaving the rear of the cylinder and rechambering. If you can see the SN on the rear face of the cylinder, that method was not used. A second method was by rechambering and countersinking the chambers for .45 case rims. If yours has cointersunk chambers, this was the method used. The third method involved shaving the rear face of the frame window and recoil shield and rechambering, and is a little more difficult to determine. If you can find a .45 Colt cartridge, simply see if it can be fully chambered and the cylinder closed. If not, it has not been altered. From a collector's value perspective, unaltered chambers are much more desirable. From a user perspective, altered chambers are more practical due to the difficulty of finding .455 ammunition.

Here is a fairly shabby converted and refinished .455 2nd, but the pictures show the counterbored chambers well, along with the cylinder SN. The SN is not that far from yours. http://www.gunauction.com/buy/71938...ith-and-wesson-.455-hand-ejector-second-model

 

[deadin]

I concur with DWalts assumption. It is a .455 MkII 2nd Model with a Canadian property mark, known as a Broad Arrow in a "C". There were 14,500 made for Canada during WW1.

 

[Hondo44]

I will try to attach pictures later. I saw a Hand Ejector that I think might have been made for some member of the UK. It is in .455 British caliber and has a lanyard ring on it. No markings indicate that it overseas.

The is one odd marking on the left side of the frame. It looks like a broken circle with three lines in it; one pointing down to the left, one pointing down in the middle, and one pointing down to the right. It has plain wooden grips and a half-moon front sight. The rear sight is just a notch.

In the yoke where in modern times I would expect to see the model number are the numbers 6949. On the butt where you might expect to see the serial number is 62792 with no letters. Sorry, I forgot to count the screws.

What can you tell me about this before I post a bad picture?

Edit: I found it in the catalog, nothing special about it except that it is old. It is in good condition though.

The yoke # 6949 is a factory 'soft fitting' # stamped on and to ensure the yoke, frame and sideplate (backside) always get back together after separation during production, and that number should always match in those 3 locations.

The revolver you discuss is the correct model and time period to be one of these

In 1918 the Canadian Gov't switched to the .45 Colt NS. This is just after the period that 724 S&W 455 Mk II Hand Ejector 2nd Models chambered in 455 Mk II or 45 Colt were ordered by the RNWMP (Royal North West Mounted Police). The revolver you discuss is the correct model and time period to be one of these.

1920 thru 1942 45 Colt NS revolvers were re-ordered exclusively except for 1932 when the last batch of 455 Eleys was ordered. Finally, to solve the issue of two different cartridges, all 45 Colts were moved to eastern Canada and all 455s to west of Thunder Bay in Northwest Ontario.

Revolvers were stamped with variations of the RCMP (Royal Canadian Mounted Police) letters. Of the 3,195 Colt NS revolvers, only 2800 were actually stamped with an issue number. S&Ws were similar in that most had an issue number but not all.

 

[zzzippper]

Great help as always. I think this is over priced at $849 from what I have read here and in the catalog. Also, I don't think the grips are original based on the pictures in the catalog. They are plain wood; no diamonds, etc.

Having read the replies, I think the marking was a C with an arrow inside...so Canadian.

 

[Hondo44]

I agree on all three counts:
1. overpriced
2. Commonwealth guns were shipped with standard commercial grips: checkered walnut w/S&W gold plated brass medallions. Only USA issued 1917s had plain smooth grips.
3. It went to Canada.

 

[deadin]

Jim,
Would a RCMP gun have the Canadian military property stamp? (Broad Arrow in C) And will a RCMP 45LC letter as such?

 

[Texas Star]

The authoritative book, "Firearms of the Mounted Police" does not mention these S&W .455's. What is the source of the information about them?

I rrealize that the book also does not mention the acquisition of the .38-44 HD's when the RCMP absorbed the British Columbia provincial police. They had ordered the .38-44's in 1940, I believe. Oddly, they issued only std. velocity ammo. RCMP re-issued them, but no "official" mention of them is in most articles or books on the Force.

The S&W M&P/Model 10 was adopted in 1954. It replaced the Colt New Service guns. Both Colt and S&W small frame .38's were used for concealed carry.

The Royal Canadian Navy bought some Colt New Service .45's in 1940. Dominion/CIL loaded the .45 Colt FMJ ammo. I've seen photos of a box of that. Skeeter Skelton mentioned those RCN .45's in, "Shooting Times."

BTW, RNWMP became the RCMP in 1920.

I am not disputing the issue of the S&W .455's to RCMP; only asking the source of the info. Also, some of them went to Australia and we have seen them here and discussed the markings on them.

 

[hsguy]

Here is a photo of the Canadian mark that has been referred to.

 

[Hondo44]

Jim,
Would a RCMP gun have the Canadian military property stamp? (Broad Arrow in C) And will a RCMP 45LC letter as such?

Dean,

Some of these guns took a circuitous route once in the Canadian government. Might be a military issue. 14500 455s went to them for military service. I understand from this forum that they will letter as Canadian military or RCMP.

 

[Hondo44]

The authoritative book, "Firearms of the Mounted Police" does not mention these S&W .455's. What is the source of the information about them?

BTW, RNWMP became the RCMP in 1920.

I am not disputing the issue of the S&W .455's to RCMP; only asking the source of the info. Also, some of them went to Australia and we have seen them here and discussed the markings on them.

Texas,

Understood, no worries. Does the book mention any Smiths in 45 Colt for the RCMP? I either picked that up here on the forum or Neal and Jinks.

By the way, I've read that their 1st handgun was the .450 Adams that was carried in a valise which sounds strange...any mention of that in your source?

Also they started out as the NWMP in 1873 until 1904 when 'Royal' was bestowed upon them.

Thx,

 

[DWalt]

Jinks says that 724 Second Models in .45 Colt were made for the Canadian Government in February 1916, and may have gone to the RCMP (sic). But there are no factory records to verify this, nor what the SNs of this group are.

 

[Texas Star]

Texas,

Understood, no worries. Does the book mention any Smiths in 45 Colt for the RCMP? I either picked that up here on the forum or Neal and Jinks.

By the way, I've read that their 1st handgun was the .450 Adams that was carried in a valise which sounds strange...any mention of that in your source?

Also they started out as the NWMP in 1873 until 1904 when 'Royal' was bestowed upon them.

Thx,

Jim-

Yes, the first handgun was the Adams .450, and they were ex- British Army guns, packed so poorly that some weren't fit for issue on arrival. No mention of a valise, and period photos show a crossdraw leather belt holster.

I got the data from that book and from an old documentary comic book about the Force and from a letter sent to me by an Inspector years ago, when I asked some questions of HQ in Ottawa. That officer, who had the same last name as I do, sent me a report on Force history written by a trainee during recruit training at Regina. I gather that new constables had to research and write up those histories to ensure that they knew their history and to enhance esprit de corps.

Other than on this board, I have never seen any reference to any Mounties using S&W .455's. But if the Canadian govt. ordered guns in .45 Colt, not .455, they were probably not for Army or RCAF use.

I'm sure the .45 Colt New Service for the RCN were bought because they were scrambling for handguns in 1940, and it was easier to load up .45 Colt ammo for Naval use than to furnish larger quantities of the non-standard caliber for land forces.

The RAF also gathered up all of their .455 Colt autos and assigned them to Coastal Command about 1941. That got the non-std. ammo in one command and they were also the RAF people most likely to need handguns, while rescuing enemy aircrew from the Channel. I'm sure you know that .455 auto was NOT the same as the .455 revolver ctg.

British Army commando troops used the Colt .45 auto, but in the US .45 ACP caliber. Churchill, who founded those raider units, insisted that they have the .45's, and carried one, himself. His was bought in 1915, before he left for the war in France. It is def. a .45 ACP, not .455. I read an article on his pistols in, "Man at Arms." The present Lord Churchill allowed the guns to be photographed for that article.

 

[DWalt]

I'm sure the .45 Colt New Service for the RCN were bought because they were scrambling for handguns in 1940, and it was easier to load up .45 Colt ammo for Naval use than to furnish larger quantities of the non-standard caliber for land forces.

The RAF also gathered up all of their .455 Colt autos and assigned them to Coastal Command about 1941. That got the non-std. ammo in one command and they were also the RAF people most likely to need handguns, while rescuing enemy aircrew from the Channel. I'm sure you know that .455 auto was NOT the same as the .455 revolver ctg.

British Army commando troops used the Colt .45 auto, but in the US .45 ACP caliber. Churchll, who founded those raider units, insisted that they have the .45's, and carried one, himself. His was bought in 1915, before he left for the war in France. It is def. a .45 ACP, not .455. I read an article on his pistols in, "Man at Arms."


I have read that a great many of the WWI-era British contract Colt Model 1911 pistols in .455 auto were later converted to .45 ACP in the interest of ammunition commonality. Not much conversion effort was required aside from supplying a new barrel in .45 ACP and making a very minor slide alteration. Plus perhaps .45 ACP magazines. I had one of those converted British-marked M1911 .455 Autos at one time, and it worked fine for me. It makes one wonder why the British didn't just buy 1911s chambered for .45 ACP in the first place. I remember that Julian Hatcher in "Hatcher's Notebook" (if you haven't read it, you should) reported that there was no difficulty in firing .45 ACP ammunition in unconverted British .455 autos. I think the .455 had a slightly larger bullet diameter, however.

 

[Hondo44]

Jim-

Yes, the first handgun was the Adams .450, and they were ex- British Army guns, packed so poorly that some weren't fit for issue on arrival. No mention of a valise, and period photos show a crossdraw leather belt holster.

I rechecked my source and the phrase used was: "...packed in a valise." Perhaps they were making reference to your fact: "...packed so poorly that some weren't fit for issue on arrival."

Yes I recently read about their 455 Auto 1911s. If they had just ordered their Smiths in 45 ACP, they could have 1911s in 45 ACP and better cartridges for both! And we could have had some triple locks with heat treated cylinders!!!!

 

[mbliss57]

Great thread guys..thanks for the history