.455 Triple lock question....

[Mbrgr1]

This is a stamp on a TL, no caliber markings on the left side, just in/out British stamps on the frame left side.


How does one tell the difference between a TL .455 and a converted 44HE 1st model?


Working on getting a serial number and cylinder markings from seller.


Thanks.

 

[steelslaver]

Hondo has a thread on 455s and it gives the serial number ranges of those made from left over 44 specials as well as those directly made as 445

 

[wheelgun610]

I'm certainly not an authority on those, or much of anything else, but if I remember correctly, the .455's were in a different serial sequence than the original .44 TL's. But don't ask me for any more specifics on that subject. I'm only throwing this in here since the apparently, the guys who do know those details are asleep at the wheel.

Mark

 

[steelslaver]

here is the thread that covers 455s I believe Hondo 44 is the authority on these But, I believe you will need a serial number to find the answer to the question.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-ha...revolver-research-thread.html?highlight=hondo

 

[murphydog]

The stamping indicates it was commercially proof tested before sale from military surplus into the commercial market.

(B?)NP - Nitro Proof
.455 - bullet diameter
.760 - case length (Mk II)
6 tons - proof testing pressure, 1 British long ton = 2200 psi, so 13,200 psi load.

 

[Mbrgr1]

The stamping indicates it was commercially proof tested before sale from military surplus into the commercial market.

(B?)NP - Nitro Proof
.455 - bullet diameter
.760 - case length (Mk II)
6 tons - proof testing pressure, 1 British long ton = 2200 psi, so 13,200 psi load,

Thanks, serial number 958

 

[mrcvs]

I believe you are confused with regards to what you are asking.

The .455 Webley chambered Triple Lock revolver was serialized in its separate serial number series, which did correspond to approximately the first third of the (generally) .44 S & W Special serialization range. So, it is possible to have a Triple Lock in both chamberings with the same serial number. For example, I own Triple Lock number 225 in .44 Special and another forum member owns this revolver with the same serial number, but chambered in .455 Webley.

The barrels of Triple Lock revolvers chambered in .44 Special are clearly marked as such. Presumably, this is also the case with the rare Triple Lock produced in calibers such as .38-40 and .44-40. (I don’t have one in such rare calibers but desperately need one, LOL!)

Those chambered in .455 Webley are sometimes marked with .455 Webley. Sometimes the barrel has nothing on it, and sometimes it’s just proofing markings applied by the British government.

So, are you sure your question isn’t the following?

“How do you know if a Triple Lock originally chambered in .455 Webley wasn’t modified to .45 Colt?”

The easiest way to determine this is to chamber a .45 Colt round in the cylinder. If it chambers, it’s been subsequently modified to .45 Colt. If it sticks out by a third, then it remains in its original .455 Webley chambering.

Attached is a photograph of the barrel markings of a Triple Lock revolver chambered in .44 Special.

 

[Mbrgr1]

I believe you are confused with regards to what you are asking.

I believe you are correct! If being confused was a dis-qualifier, I would not be allowed on the forum!


So the 660 "converted" 44HE guns were marked "44" on the left side? Missed that while reading.


Well, I think this one might be overpriced for condition @ just shy of 2K, but it is a TL and I still want one.

 

[mrcvs]

I believe you are correct! If being confused was a dis-qualifier, I would not be allowed on the forum!


So the 660 "converted" 44HE guns were marked "44" on the left side? Missed that while reading.


Well, I think this one might be overpriced for condition @ just shy of 2K, but it is a TL and I still want one.

Confused is an okay state. Go look at the Colt forum with regards to a problematic Colt Cavalry Model revolver where I confused left and right and had to correct my post and then in my explanation correcting my post I confused left and right yet again! Some days I really shouldn’t be allowed free rein of a keyboard without an editor in tow.

So, the BIG question is, is this revolver rechambered to .45 Colt or not? If so, it’s not much more than an $800 or $825 revolver. I say that because a bunch came up about 5 or 6 years ago and each of them sold for $800 to $825. Of course, this was several years ago, but a modified revolver is going to have much less return on investment than an original one. If you want it badly enough, maybe $1000 might be fair—including shipping, sales tax, and FFL fees. If you want it badly enough!

IF it remains in the original .455 Webley chambering, it might be worth the asking price of $1900, but it had better be in at least 90% condition, and, really, considerably better than that. Simply put, .455 Webley revolvers just aren’t worth as much as their .44 Special cousins. I know of a really nice revolver supposedly chambered in its original.455 Webley that sold at auction a few months ago and, after accounting for the buyer’s premium, shipping, and FFL fees, the total cost wasn’t much over $1600.

 

[Mbrgr1]

Thanks! That's what I thought.

 

[steelslaver]

I thought he was asking about the 455 TL from group 1 or 4.
Group 1 having 845 factory converted from 44 special
Group 4 having 691 finished in 455 but using 44 special serial number.

With a serial number of 958, it must be from group 1 or 2 and most likely group 2 as they started with 1 and went to about 5800. There is nothing in the beginning of the thread to indicate the serial numbers of group 1


From Hondo's thread
I want to categorize by the following production models:

0. Misc. individually produced commercial .455s.
1. 44 Hand Ejector-1st Model Triple Lock, 846 in the 44 Spl # series factory converted to 455.
2. 455 Hand Ejector-1st Model Triple Lock #1 thru #5800 (formerly thought to be #5461.)
3. A. 455 Hand Ejector-2nd Model #5801 (formerly #5462) thru 74755.
4. 44 Hand Ejector-1st Model Triple Lock: 691 assembled at the end of the British contract but sold on the commercial market 1916-17, numbered in the 44 Spl # series ~ 12,XXX range.

I would appreciate info from any 455 owners who'd like to participate and I'll post the results. A serial # (or partial) would be very helpful as well as whether or not it's caliber roll marked on the barrel.

Here is mine serial number 124xx and from the last bartch of 691 assembled using left over 44 special frames.

its safe drawer buddy is a 2nd model 455

 

[Mbrgr1]

I thought he was asking about the 455 TL from group 1 or 4.
Group 1 having 845 factory converted from 44 special
Group 4 having 691 finished in 455 but using 44 special serial number.

With a serial number of 958, it must be from group 1 or 2 and most likely group 2 as they started with 1 and went to about 5800. There is nothing in the beginning of the thread to indicate the serial numbers of group 1

I think he was saying that any 44HE that was converted to .455 would have the 44 designation stamped on the barrel, since this one is not stamped, it cannot be one.


I think.

 

[Hondo44]

I think he was saying that any 44HE that was converted to .455 would have the 44 designation stamped on the barrel, since this one is not stamped, it cannot be one.


I think.

None of the 455 TLs were stamped 44 Spl.

THERE ARE FOUR BASIC VERSIONS OF .455 chambered Hand Ejector revolvers made by S&W under contract to the British for WW I. Three of the versions, 1., 2., & 4. are 'triple lock’ models, but those in the 4th group are actually the same as 1st versions. “If” roll marked with the cal., all that are roll marked are only marked 455 because all versions are actually reamed to also chamber the longer 455 MK I cartridge per the British contract. Therefore the ‘book’ references to caliber marking of 455 Mark II for all versions of S&W 455 chambered revolvers is a bit of a misnomer.

THEY ARE:

1. “.44 HE - 1st Model”, Triple Lock, .455 chambering: 812* factory reconfigured unassembled or any unsold ".44 Spl HE 1st Model", original chamberings unknown but most or all were likely originally .44 Spl. For the British military there are 666 #s 1104 thru 10417 (obviously not all serial #s in this range were used for the 666), the majority shipped Oct 21, 1914. The extra 146 in serial range #s 9858-10007 went to the commercial market; 123 to England Oct 1,1914, and 23 in the US Jan 1, 1918 [N&J pgs. 203-205]. These 812 .455 TLs were serial #’d in the .44 1st Model serial # range of 1104 to 10417. Per Neal & Jinks, Pg. 214, these are known to have been stamped SMITH & WESSON but not including the 455 cal. stamp.

* SCSW reports "over 800", but by shipped serial # count, it’s actually 812, 146 of which are commercial guns [S&W N&J pgs. 203 - 205].

The 666 were shipped in 33 different groups ranging from 4/8/14 to 4/28/16 with the majority delivered 10/21/14. These will often have added lanyard swivels when converted to 455 at the factory by drilling thru the serial # which is factory re-stamped on the left side of the grip frame under the stock.

The 146 .44 HE 1st Models that were converted/built as .455s assembled some time after the first 666 military .44 1st Model .455 TLs and sold commercially; 123 were sold to the British, shipped to Wilkinson Sword 10/1/14 and 23 sold in the US, shipped to Shapleigh Hardware in St. Louis, MO. on 1/1/1918. Some are not seen with lanyard swivels.

The 23 at some point were converted to .45 Colt and it’s unknown if by the factory before shipment to Shapleigh or after delivery to Shapleigh. However even IF converted by the factory (as suggested in a September 2013 Rock Island gun auction narrative and likely just a story), the revolvers would not have a star on the butt or a rework date on the grip frame because they did not go back to the factory for conversion as rework, again, if they were converted by the factory at all. See #9860 here http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-ha...2-can-you-help-me-identify.html#post140830361


2. “.455 Mark II HE - 1st Model” TL in the new .455 British serial # range 1 to over 5802* shipped 1914-15. Thus creating 67** duplicate serial #s with the 666 1st version in #1. above in the “.44 HE 1st Model TL” serial number range (.455 factory converted).

*“The serial numbers in the .455 Hand Ejector series 5721 - 5802 are all .455 second series triple locks and were all shipped commercial generally to Canada dealers. Hope that this helps.” Roy After this shipment there were some of this model sold commercially all in the 5502 - 5857 range, but including a few military issues in that range as well.

**There are 67 possible duplicates of TL #s of the existing 666 military shipped contract listed numbers of .44 HE 1st Model TLs factory converted to .455 (1st version above), #s 1104-5755 in the .44 HE # range (not all inclusive, known and listed [S&W 1857 – 1945 pgs. 204-205]), with 67 of the .455 HE 1st Model TLs (2nd version) #s 1 to 5800 in the Brit contract # range.

There can be ~ 4988 2nd version .455 TLs duplicated serial #s with .44 Spl TLs.

There’s also duplicate #s of the .44 HE 1st Model TL .455s #5801 to #15375 (the last .44 HE 1st Model TL serial # known), of ~796 with .455 HE 2nd Models (3rd version) #s 5801 up thru #10007 in the Brit range, but the exact #s of duplicates is unknown because not all #s are known to have been used in either range.


3. “.455 Mark II HE - 2nd Model” (sans extractor barrel shroud and 3rd lock), the extractor rod is reduced .015” in diameter, and the cylinder ctr pin hole in the extractor star is reduced .020” with the associated Ext ctr pin rear tip reduced .020” in diameter from the TL versions, the ".44 HE 1st Model Triple Lock" factory converted to .455, and the ".455 HE 1st Model Triple Lock" produced in .455 (documented in Neal & Jinks Pg. 215-16). This version was referred to as the MK II revolver by the British (S&W only referred to the chambering as MK II), and stamped ‘II’ by them, upper left rear side of frame. The 2nd Model continued in the .455 1st Model TL Brit serial range and beginning after ~#5857 (previously thought to be 5462) to #74755, shipped 1915-17.


By Feb 1916 724* were manufactured for the Canadians, chambered in 45 Colt, without a cartridge roll mark on barrel, presumed for the RCMP [H of S&W, 3rd ed., pg. 203]. #74744

Another 15** in 45 Colt were sold commercially in 1916; likely “over run” guns from the above order with consecutive #s. Only#46748 is known.

The Canadian military also bought 14,500*** .455 2nd Models [H of S&W, pg. 203].

And 1105 2nd Models were released for commercial sales in the US, shipped Dec 1917 to Shapleigh Hardware in St. Louis [S&W, N&J pg. 216].

*”Roy's comments on that model might be helpful here [regarding an original Factory .45 Colt # 74744 that shipped on May 4, 1917]:" Bob 'Bettis1' #74301 also known.


“The 727 [724] number could be correct but there have only been a small number that are from this shipment, less than 20 documented.” Jim Fisher ‘bmg60’ post #8 here: http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-ha...d-model-hand-ejector-45-lc.html#post139085603

**“The run of 15 with consecutive serial numbers, made in 1916 are all commercial, #46748 from that range is documented and owned by Jim Fisher. There is no cal markings on this gun and the only other markings are the standard. Roy had to research the build records to find them because the shipping records didn’t list the cal. The front sights on these factory chambered for.45 Colt is a little higher [than 455 revolvers]. This is the only one of the 15 that is known. Roy said he guessed the other 14 were for a shipment to some other country.” Jim Fisher ‘bmg60’ post #18 here: http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-ha...d-model-hand-ejector-45-lc.html#post139086401

***Canadian military shipments of 14,500 .455s:

-1500 Shipped after Aug. 1915
-850 Shipped thru December 24th, 1915
-150 Shipped thru March 31st, 1916
-6000 Shipped thru July 22nd, 1916
-6000 Shipped February 10, 1917
At least 1 #728XX shipped July 29th, 1916, see post #10: http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-ha...5-455-hand-ejector-45-colt.html#post139027072



4. “44 HE - 1st Model”, ‘Triple Lock’, same as #1. above, but not likely converted .44s, just unused frames assembled into .455s:

“As the Brit contracts were finishing up in April, 1916, [H of S&W pg. 203] S&W found enough [HE 1st Model TL frames, possibly already numbered as .44s, and .455 barrels and cyls] to build 691 .44 HE 1st Model [per Roy Jinks in various letters] Triple Lock frames [for building .455s*]. These guns are numbered in the .44 Spl serial number series. I have no idea why they were not just numbered in the .455 series. Perhaps it was .455 barrels and cylinders that the factory found, and they simply turned again to existing 44 HE 1st Model TL frames to use them up. They were sold commercially.” Lee Jarrett

*Example #12496 – cal marked, British ordinance marks for acceptance into military; old TL inventory made 1914, shipped to commercial dealers in England, this one to Bigelow & Co, London, order of 300 revolvers, 12/6/16.
Although the last 691 TLs are likely numbered too high (12000 to 13000 and higher and with the caliber stamped on the barrel), to be the version #1 that are not cal stamped, they are the same. And not likely or possible to have a duplicate number in the .455 HE 1st Model TL Brit contract serial range #1 to at least #5800.

 

[WCCPHD]

Since 5642 is mentioned specifically I think photos are called for. Per Mr. Jinks, "...455 H.E. First Model serial 5642 is one of the rare commercial shipments. It was shipped in April 1915."









I removed the wondersight (and sent it to my late friend CR Sides, who held them in high esteem.) Unfortunately it was converted to .45 Colt by shaving the cylinder face.