.455 Webley Triple Lock Revolver

[mrcvs]

This revolver remains in its original .455 Webley configuration. The photograph of the cylinder serial number also demonstrates the nice surface one wants to see, proving original .455 Webley configuration. The crossed penants are a proof mark; the crown tells us it’s the property of the crown. I’m not sure the significance of the marking above the crown? A2 was the inspector at the Royal Small Arms Factory at Enfield Lock (“E”). What is the significance of the “X” through the cylinder serial number? Also noticeably absent is “Not English Make”. Also absent are the two facing arrows, signifying removal from service, and also absent are proofing of each individual chamber. No markings on the barrel except the barrel address. Serial number 3604.

 

[mrcvs]

And more photographs.

 

[mrcvs]

And a few more photographs.

 

[Baltimoreed11754]

Very nice Smith.

 

[mrcvs]

The top marking is a broad arrow and indicates British military ownership. From what further research indicates. I had either forgotten that or just learned it. I guess I was confused because of the crown, indicating ownership by The Crown. But, I guess that which is owned by The Crown isn’t necessarily owned by the British military, but that owned by the British military is ultimately owned by The Crown. Am I correct?

 

[Wiregrassguy]

IIRC. the Crown over A2 is the inspector stamp and the E is for the Enfield facility.

 

[mrcvs]

IIRC. the Crown over A2 is the inspector stamp and the E is for the Enfield facility.

Yes, that’s the conclusion I came to as well. It was what I now know is described as a broad arrow that was perplexing.

I thought this revolver to have less markings than most.

 

[huthike]

Beautiful gun, and unaltered too!

 

[22hipower]

Looks to be in very nice condition. The only thing I note that is different from the two later ones I have is the location of the acceptance stamps being high on the frame rather than on the "knuckle" where we usually see them. Were all the early ones stamped in that location? Any idea why the location would have changed with the later ones? I don't have, as I remember, the broad arrow stamps or separate cylinder proof stamps on either of mine.

Jeff
SWCA #1457

https://flic.kr/p/2onW1vN https://www.flickr.com/photos/194934231@N03/

 

[mrcvs]

Looks to be in very nice condition. The only thing I note that is different from the two later ones I have is the location of the acceptance stamps being high on the frame rather than on the "knuckle" where we usually see them. Were all the early ones stamped in that location? Any idea why the location would have changed with the later ones? I don't have, as I remember, the broad arrow stamps or separate cylinder proof stamps on either of mine.

Jeff
SWCA #1457

https://flic.kr/p/2onW1vN https://www.flickr.com/photos/194934231@N03/

Good eye! That might be why I thought there are less markings on my revolver than others. This might not be the case but they are located in an unusual location.

 

[mrcvs]

I wonder if Jim (Hondo44) saw this thread, as he tracks these?

 

[Muley Gil]

I believe the .455 TL is considered to be a MK I and the 2nd Model .455 is a MK II.

 

[mrcvs]

I believe the .455 TL is considered to be a MK I and the 2nd Model .455 is a MK II.

It’s the other way around, which seems counterintuitive.

 

[22hipower]

It’s the other way around, which seems counterintuitive.

Always thought the MKIs are the TLs, the MKIIs are the 2nd Models. Maybe the confusion comes from the .455 Webley MKI, MKII and more ammo? Perhaps both the TL and the 2nd Model should be referred to as MKIIs?

Question on the grips, are they numbered to the gun? Maybe in pencil and possibly worn off if they were numbered. I can barely see the pencil writing in bright light on my 2nd model grips. Anyway, question really was shouldn't this as a TL have the stocks without the medallion as shown on page 196 of the 4th edition of the Standard Catalog?

Jeff
SWCA #1457

 

[mrcvs]

.455 Webley - Wikipedia

Scroll through this and be prepared to be thoroughly confused.

 

[22hipower]

.455 Webley - Wikipedia

Scroll through this and be prepared to be thoroughly confused.

Yes, I looked at that, and was indeed thoroughly confused. I think I'd go with the Standard Catalog, then we can all be equally confused in the same way.

Great gun, no matter what we call it!

Jeff
SWCA #1457

 

[handejector]

What I know-
ALL the 455 Contract guns had gold medallions.
ALL the 455 Contract guns have the longer (Mk I) chamber so they could shoot any ammo in a pinch. I THINK the Brits still considered all the Contract guns to be Mk IIs even though they have long chambers. Leave it to the Brits.....
I do not think the Roman numeral II stamped on some guns means "2nd Model".
The Crossed Pennants is NOT a proofmark. It is some type of military acceptance or inspectors mark. Military owned guns were not usually proofed. The ones you see proofed were done after selling as surplus.
Brit military markings vary greatly in placement and quantity. I've seen several guns with nothing but a Crown on the butt.

 

[PJGP]

What I know-
ALL the 455 Contract guns had gold medallions.
ALL the 455 Contract guns have the longer (Mk I) chamber so they could shoot any ammo in a pinch. I THINK the Brits still considered all the Contract guns to be Mk IIs even though they have long chambers. Leave it to the Brits.....
I do not think the Roman numeral II stamped on some guns means "2nd Model".
The Crossed Pennants is NOT a proofmark. It is some type of military acceptance or inspectors mark. Military owned guns were not usually proofed. The ones you see proofed were done after selling as surplus.
Brit military markings vary greatly in placement and quantity. I've seen several guns with nothing but a Crown on the butt.

I do not know of any revolver chambered for the 455 that will only take the Mk II (shorter) case.

List of Changes 17463 5 July 1915 "Pistols, Smith & Wesson, .455, with 61/2-inch barrel-
Mark I.
Mark II."
"The Mark I Smith & Wesson pistol is that described by the Trade as the "Old Model". The Mark II, known as the "New Model", is distinguished by having the numeral II stamped on the left side of the frame"

Note that the Triple locks were not stamped Mk I, and that Mk II has nothing to do with the ammunition.

The Crossed Pennants most certainly ARE proof marks. They are not inspectors' marks; these are the Crown over inspector's number over applicable RSAF, eg Crown over A3 over E. British military firearms made in Britain were most certainly proofed at the RSAF. Hence the different marks on the 455 S&Ws made to order overseas. In WW II British inspectors were working in the US. However, WW II Lend Lease items were not marked because they remained US property. Do not confuse these military proof marks with civilian ones done after sale as surplus.

I have a Triple Lock s/n 3989 and two Mk IIs and all three have the Crossed Pennants in the same places: LHS top front of body and rear face of cylinder. The inspector's stamp is on the LHS top rear of the body on the TL and just above the LHS stock plate on the Mk IIs.

Peter

 

[PJGP]

What is the significance of the “X” through the cylinder serial number? Also noticeably absent is “Not English Make”. Also absent are the two facing arrows, signifying removal from service, and also absent are proofing of each individual chamber. No markings on the barrel except the barrel address. Serial number 3604.

The X is merely the Crossed Pennants proof stamp. On my 455 S&Ws it is at another place on the rear of the cylinder. "Not English Make" was a later commercial proof requirement. You gun was clearly not sold as surplus and so avoided all that commercial butchery. In other words it walked out of the back door of the army!

Peter

 

[mrcvs]

Maybe I’m confused in that the Triple Lock IS Mk I but all commercial brass is MK II as it’s shorter and can also fire in Mk I revolvers, but if Mk I brass was available, it’s versatility is not as great, being only able to service in Mk I revolvers?

I had thought Triple Lock revolvers were Mk II and Mk I came later. I thought I remembered it as such as it was counterintuitive, the reverse of what one might expect???

455 Webley MKII - Large Pistol - Brass Cases