.45acp loading- process of discovery

[Harley Fan]

I'd like to show you folks what I've done in my learning curve, show my ignorance, and ask for some guidance. I don't post much here... but no mistake- I visit here often and read virtually every reloading thread.

I've been reloading for about a year now. Pecking away .38 sp with a Lee loader at first, then a RCBS Partner single stage, for loading .38 and .357 mag for my revolvers. Circumstances change- my son joined up with me and now we reload for our entire collection in 9mm, 45acp as well as the .38 stuff with a shared-cost acquisition of a Lee turret press. All our dies are 4-stage, all dies are Lee.

I would like to say I'm a revolver guy, owning now two S&W's, and a Ruger LCR. My son has Glocks, a 19, and a 30H in 45acp.

Well, I always said I was not a semi-auto fan, then I bartered some woodworking for a new-in-box Colt M1991 Ser. 80 1911. Now I'm obsessed with the danged thing. My last range visits I've left all the other stuff at home. Hell, I even made new grips for it.



Bear in mind I'm a relative beginner at shooting, the 1911 is my first semi auto. Although relatively new to reloading, I have an engineering background, a pretty real sense of caution, and keep some decent records.

I say obsessed... throw in teased, and frustrated. Basically my revolvers shoot holes in targets where I point them within reason. My 4" 686 is amazingly accurate to this beginner- it holds up its part and waits on me to bring my end up. But this 1911 "Mil. Spec." is frustrating. I can get some satisfying groups, then (as my friend Engineer1911 put it) targets "swimming in a sea of ineptitude."

I recently shot with some friends- both with decades of experience and great shots. My friend Jeff (a smith) having shared some bad target pics, told me as we began, "Could be the shooter. Could be the gun. Could be your ammo. We'll shoot your spec gun, you shoot my Kimber. We'll shoot your ammo, you shoot ours."

They watched my technique, said I didn't have any bad habits, suggested some minor things. They shot the Colt... my ammo, theirs. Briefly, they said the Colt was a good one as Mil. Spec shooters go, and they both suggested to dry-fire the Colt to improve on the flinch and jerk issues. Additionally, I seemed to have better luck with Skip's WIN231 230 gr. loads.

~~

These days, it's what powder you can get, not what you want. My small inventory consists of 700-X, Titegroup, and some Hungarian obsolete stuff called REX-II. I also have a pound of IMR-PB. Along this time I found a pound of HP-38. All along in my reloading, I did not seriously consider what powder differences did to accuracy.

Thanks all who have gone this far- I'm getting to it...

To take the shooter's error out of the equation and to see just what my loads were doing, I made a redneck's cheap rest.



I then loaded samples with 3 powders I had on hand, all with 230 gr. FMJ ball. I took this to the range to test. it's a 50' indoor range, so when I rolled back all the way, the target was in such a shadow, I came forward until I could see better. I'd guess 45'.

Here's my 3 targets. I held 6, held as steady as I could. Iwas stunned.

 

[blujax01]

I recently shot with some friends- both with decades of experience and great shots...

They watched my technique, said I didn't have any bad habits, suggested some minor things. ...

Additionally, I seemed to have better luck with Skip's WIN231 230 gr. loads.
~~

Whoa-whoa-whoa, back up the bus.

Central Indiana?

Reloader with years of experience?

Named SKIP???

Could you be speaking of Skip Sackett? If so, tell him he is still missed. And send me a PM.

 

[Harley Fan]

I ran out of time... but what little I did test is telling me that with this Colt and this bullet, the WIN231 / HP-38 powder is superior?

My cheap rest took a lot of the shooter's error away. And it also relieved my worry that the Colt was inaccurate. Well, it's fine for a 2"ish. And I can continue to learn with it.

On the strength of this info, and the fact I've just received a big box of plated 200 gr. RNFP bullets, I've loaded test rounds of the following:

700-X 5.2 gr. and 4.6 gr.
Titegroup 5.2 gr. and 4.9 gr.
Rex-II 4.7 gr. and 4.3 gr.
WIN231/HP-38 5.2 gr. and 4.9 gr.

I'm taking my Redneck Ransom block with me and will perform the same tests.

I've arrived at a decent COL height with these new flat nosed bullets to share the taper with a ball round. I'm going middle-ground and a little hotter to test all these rounds as some of my much earlier starter loads felt anemic and would hardly seem to rack the slide.

You folks have any suggestions on what I'm doing right or wrong? Do any here shoot a 200 gr. flat-nosed ball? Any direction I might try differently?

 

[blujax01]

You're getting 2" groups at 45' with mil-spec iron blades.

~ You win ~

 

[Harley Fan]

You're getting 2" groups at 45' with mil-spec iron blades.

~ You win ~

PM sent!

Well, the 2"+ could be coincidence... my "sample" was so small. But hand holding this canon at 10 yards? With mostly 700-X I'm like 5" to 7" out.

Over in the competitive shooting area, DavidR has a "for fun" competition for .45. I cheerfully come in last...

 

[varmint243]

IMO most of the work has already been done for bullseye loads.
Pick a 200gr LSWC from a reputable bullseye bullet maker, 3.5-4.0 of your favorite fast powder and call it done.
Put the pistol rest away and work on the basics.
Then work on the shooter.
Then work on the shooter.
Then work on the shooter.
Then work on the shooter.
Firing a couple groups with a load tells you nothing.
You need to fire the same load for many range visits over a period of months.
You will find many things can case a good or a bad group that has nothing to do with the equipment.
There is a dedicated bullseye forum with some nice folks out there.

 

[Vulcan Bob]

Sounds like you are on the way to good ammo. The 1911 takes a bit of getting used to if you are not used to shooting an semi auto pistol. It feels a bit "busy" at first when fireing, with the slide working, ejecting the spent case and feeding the next round, your hand and mind feel and note all this. The trick is consistency, the same grip and grip pressure for each shot, trigger control and feeling the trigger reset and not releasing the trigger any further and concentrating on the front sight. Dry fire practice is very helpful, practice until the front sight does not move when the sear breaks and the hammer falls, using just the first pad of your trigger finger. Make each shot a deliberate one and a learning experience. This sounds a bit daunting but is very doable with practice and a lot of bullets down range. Been where you are and understand!

 

[ageingstudent]

Sounds like you are on the way to good ammo. The 1911 takes a bit of getting used to if you are not used to shooting an semi auto pistol. It feels a bit "busy" at first when fireing, with the slide working, ejecting the spent case and feeding the next round, your hand and mind feel and note all this. The trick is consistency, the same grip and grip pressure for each shot, trigger control and feeling the trigger reset and not releasing the trigger any further and concentrating on the front sight. Dry fire practice is very helpful, practice until the front sight does not move when the sear breaks and the hammer falls, using just the first pad of your trigger finger. Make each shot a deliberate one and a learning experience. This sounds a bit daunting but is very doable with practice and a lot of bullets down range. Been where you are and understand!

And pay attention to blinking when the trigger breaks. You must resist the urge to blink. My groups got much better with my P220 when I discovered this little gremlin. Blinks can be so subtle that even someone watching you can miss them. Have a friend load magazines for you and randomly put a snap cap or dud round in here and there. It's very educational when the gun goes click when you expect a boom.

Edit: I forgot to mention that since you ascertained that the gun shoots straight and the sights are good, you should google 'correction target'. I printed up a bunch of these and found that they helped if my groups were in the same general area of the target. I generally shoot by myself so these were very helpful in pointing to bad habits.

 

[fredj338]

IMO, 2" groups with a mil sec 1911 is pretty good. A trigger job will help. As to the loads, yes, powders & charge wts matter. I have always found semiautos more finicky tHan a good revolver. After all, a lot more going on, more moving parts. Tinker with the other powders & groups will likely shrink.

 

[Harley Fan]

I understand all that's been posted so far, and I'm working toward that. Varmit243 makes a perfect point, and one that I am, and will, heed:

Then work on the shooter.
Then work on the shooter.
Then work on the shooter.
Then work on the shooter.

That's the challenge and the fun.

I didn't stress enough that of the three basic things... gun, shooter, ammo... that I realize that I, as shooter, am the most suspect. I had strong suspicion that was the case. And there's quite a drumbeat out there that all Mil. Spec 1911's are erratic junk, and that one has to throw all sorts of coin at one (or buy something else) to get them to run right.

My little cobbled up rest seems to point to the fact that my Colt is fine, that the main thing is the shooter. The ammo factor, with the pic's I posted, was a surprise to me, and it's why I posted all this windy stuff in the reloading section.

I also appreciate all the words from everyone.

 

[Harley Fan]

IMO, 2" groups with a mil sec 1911 is pretty good. A trigger job will help. As to the loads, yes, powders & charge wts matter. I have always found semiautos more finicky Han a good revolver. After all, a lot more going on, more moving parts. Tinker with the other powders & groups will likely shrink.

Understand about the trigger, Fred. It's a heckuva difference from my Smith 686 shooting single action.

This Colt does have a smooth pull though, and now that I've been pulling it a while, I'm learning it has a predictable break.

 

[Engineer1911]

1911 is like Golf

Shooting a 1911 45 acp is a little like a golfer wanting a lower score, to get smaller groups you buy another one. Golfers constanly buy more golf clubs hoping for a lower score. Rule #1: Shoot the one you own now until you get consistent groups every time -- time.

A month ago I shot a couple of really nice 1-1/2" to 2" wide groups right to left. The group size for elevation was nicely centered on the bullseye but ~18" to 24" tall. Once again, In the Sea of Ineptitude .

 

[johngalt]

Whoa-whoa-whoa, back up the bus.

Central Indiana?

Reloader with years of experience?

Named SKIP???

Could you be speaking of Skip Sackett? If so, tell him he is still missed. And send me a PM.

And don't tell him you've been using Titegroup...

 

[johngalt]

It has been a challenge for me to find a .45 auto hardball load that is match-grade accurate at 50 yds. I'm coming to the conclusion that fast powders like Bullseye aren't the best.

Powders in the W231 to Unique range have worked better for me. My favorite load so far is 5.7 gr W231. 6.2 gr of either Universal or Unique also works well. 5.3 gr Green Dot also worked well, but I quit using it because it meters so poorly. I would like to try AA#5 if I could ever find it.

The articles I've read say you want the velocity to be around 820 fps. Someday I need to get a chronograph and try to duplicate Federal GM45A, their match hardball load.

Also, practice dry firing. A lot. Your 686 likely has a better single action trigger than an out of the box 1911. A trigger job may help, but don't go super light. For service matches, the minimum trigger weight it 4#. For bullseye, I think minimum is 3.5#.

 

[BigBill]

Not bad shooting for a 1911 @ 45'?? Awesome to me.

I reworked my well used 1911 norinco. It ha a loose barrel bushing in the slide besides the looseness on the barrel. The frame rail to slide fit is your normal loose GI fit. I wanted to see what kind of accuracy I could get using cheap affordable parts with me doing the fitting.

Here's what I did. I purchased a national match barrel bushing(cdnn). A surplus 1911 barrel from (sportsmansguide)and a full length guide rod kit. Adjustable trigger(cheap) lube the gun with moly.

I did all the fitting of the low budget build myself. Using Russian wolf 45acp ball ammo at 25yds she shoots clusters and cloverleafs. No matter who shoots it. I never expected it to be this accurate. I shot cloverleafs and two new shooters also shot cloverleafs and clusters.

I fitted the barrel so it has no barrel spring when it's in full battery with the proper lug ingagement. When it hinges down to load the next round there is no barrel spring. The barrel bushing is fitted for a 100% lockup in full battery. The barrel bushing was fitted so the bushing wrench is needed for the last 1/8_ 1/4 turn. Not tight but snug. This accuracy is still with the normal loose frame rail fit. I purchased all the 1911 tools from brownells. I haven't tightened up the frame rail to slide looseness yet.

Now I need to try my 200gr swc target loads next.

 

[ChiefStealth]

I reload .45 ACP for my H&K USP. The only powder mentioned, that I can speak to, is Titegroup. I have loaded and shot loads from 4.4gn to 4.9gn, and every .1 increment in between. All with 230gn RN plated from Xtreme, or Rainier. IME 4.4gn loads don't reliably cycle the pistol, but are very accurate. Sub 2in. groups at 20 yards. 4.8gn & 4.9gn loads have terrible accuracy. 4.7gn loads are a bit more accurate. 4.6gn loads a bit more accurate. Overall, the lower the load, the better the accuracy. The higher the load, the worse the accuracy.
I've been told by a few people that this is a common conclusion. Faster powders are more accurate at the lower end of their load range. Slower burning powders are more accurate at the upper end of their load range. Medium powders are more accurate in the middle of their load range. It's my guess, that is the reason that people tend to prefer the medium burn powders (HP-38, W231, Unique) But, if ya can't get any of those, then load fast powders at the low end and slow powders at the upper end. YMMV.

 

[fredj338]

Understand about the trigger, Fred. It's a heckuva difference from my Smith 686 shooting single action.

This Colt does have a smooth pull though, and now that I've been pulling it a while, I'm learning it has a predictable break.

One thing that makes the 1911 timely is the trigger. Just a small amount of smoothing produces a trigger superior to just about anything else in a semiauto. The superb grip angle/shape fits most hands. Buy a good one, resist messing with it too much, it will be reliable. Accuracy will vary from gun to gun & bbl to bbl. my best 1911 started as a mll spec Springfield. Trigger job, barsto tach bbl, it will shoot under 2" all day at 25yds offhand with a good shooter.
Just a note, I never get best accuracy with 230gr rnfmj. I find the bullet base just not uniform enough. Something like 200-230gr jhp will often shot a bit better. Even a god cast lead bullet will shoot a bit better than ball.

 

[boatbum101]

Search my past posts . Have listed many accurate loads with 230 ball , 200 LSWC & 185 JHP . All Ransom rest tested @ 50yds with accurized 1911's . Even with a well fit gun , 230 ball 10 rounds in 3" or less @ 50yds is as good as it gets . All the military teams shoot is the Nosler 185JHP .

 

[fredj338]

Search my past posts . Have listed many accurate loads with 230 ball , 200 LSWC & 185 JHP . All Ransom rest tested @ 50yds with accurized 1911's . Even with a well fit gun , 230 ball 10 rounds in 3" or less @ 50yds is as good as it gets . All the military teams shoot is the Nosler 185JHP .

And that was my point.