460 S&W reloaders: AA 5744?

[RIDE-RED 350r]

Running low on h110 and have a pound of AA-5744 on hand.

Just wondering if anyone has used it for 460 mag and would mind sharing your experiences with it good or bad.

Also have AA#9 on hand as well..

Seems like most folks (yours truly included) stick mainly with H110/w296 for full on 460 loads. I have loading data for the Accurate powders but after looking here I didn't get a heck of alot of range reports on it.... I am not asking for load data, just curious about some real-world experience any of you may have...Worth a try or a waste of time and reloading supplies?

Input?

Note: I have a 460v (5"bbl) and am sending 240 and 300gr XTP-Mags down range....

 

[azlou66]

Both powders work well in my 500, 5744 is excellent for reduced loads and AA#9 provides very good accuracy. I also use AA#9 in 44 Mag and 45 Win Mag.

 

[ruggyh]

The A#9 is a good performer.

2400, N110, Lil Gun work well also over wide range of weights.

If you are shooting 300 grain or heavier bullet IMR 4227 has become one of my favorites.

If you cast 600-700 grain pills IMR 4198 seems to work well.

Good luck and be safe
Ruggy

 

[BLUEDOT37]

460 powders

I've never used AA5744. Any particular reason it works good in reduced loads?

Currently using/experimenting with I4227 in the 460. Anybody use it for reduced loads too?

I used AA9 in my 45LC +P & 454C loads & didn't have a good experience with it. http://smith-wessonforum.com/reloading/289304-aa-9-squibs-45-colt-cases.html

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[shocker]

I use 5744 quite a bit. Only quirk is unburned granules in the bore IF the pressure isn't high enough, say 30000 psi. Shouldn't be a problem for 460.
To answer an above question, 5744 is position insensitive, so it's excellent for reduced loads in rifle calibers where case fill could be as low as 40%.

 

[RIDE-RED 350r]

Thanks for the input.

I have found AA#9 to perform excellent in my 44mag rounds and have not yet tried it with my 460. My brother has tried it in his 500 going by Western Powder's published loading data. He worked up and encountered sticky extraction to the point he had to tap empties out with a pen a fair bit before their published max. If I recall he only made it about halfway from starting charge to max...So I have been a little hesitant to try #9 with my 460 for that reason...

It should also be noted though that I worked up to .5 gr under Hodgdons max with H110 (which is a full 1 gr under what Hornady lists as max I might add, 48.5 and 49.5 respectively) and got stubborn extraction of empties with 460.

I haven't tried Lil Gun in 460 yet and have a pound of that on the shelf too. I hear alot of bad about that powder for running hot as a trade-off for lower pressures... I have run some stout near max Lil Gun loads pushing 240s out of my 629-6 and I have not seen any bad side effects. Admittedly it has only been about 50 rds though. But it does make me curious as to how it may work in the X-Frame.

At this point I begin to wonder if it is something I am doing wrong with my reloading. It seems that both my brother with his 500 and myself with my 460 cannot push too close to max published data with these 2 particular revolvers.

IDK, I'm just playing the game looking to try a couple new things.

I think today I will load a few test work-up 460 rds with some 5744 and Lil Gun and see what happens...

Thanks again for the input guys! Powder (at least the few I am most interested in) is still a bit up and down around here....

 

[ruggyh]

Your gun may have tighter throats than the test guns used by company validating their data. I have pair of 8 3/8" 460 with very different, about 150 fps and about 1.5 grains of H110 on 200 grain FTX between sticky extraction.

I don't use Lil Gun with lighter bullets (accelerated top strap cutting) but do use it with 325 Barnes Busters for bison hunting.

IMR 4227 wont give the velocity of H110 but has become my favorite for the 300 XTP MAG and up weights bullets, you could call them reduced recoil loads compared to 200 grin 2350 fps loads.

Gotta get going-Bear hunt starts this evening- I will be using the 240 Grain Cutting Edge Bullet on top of H110.


Good luck and be safe
Ruggy

 

[ruggyh]

I would add only to do 100% case fill loads, have seen a number of jacketed bullets not making it out of the barrel because adequate pressures were not reached for the powder to burn properly.

These individuals were trying to make what I call girlfriend loads.

I find TrailBoss to be much more consistent if reduced loads are desired.

I use 5744 quite a bit. Only quirk is unburned granules in the bore IF the pressure isn't high enough, say 30000 psi. Shouldn't be a problem for 460.
To answer an above question, 5744 is position insensitive, so it's excellent for reduced loads in rifle calibers where case fill could be as low as 40%.

 

[A.O.]

I've 500's not 460's.. but..

I've used the AA#9 with good success, and Also I use the 5744 for my "special" loads.. works great in that capacity!

 

[RIDE-RED 350r]

Thanks fellas! And especially you Ruggyh, your input with the X-frame stuff is always valued and appreciated...

Pardon the rookie question but, is tighter throats a good thing, bad thing, or indifferent?

I have no intention of building "girlfriend" loads... I didn't buy my 460 to load it down.. My goal is to push them as hard as reasonably possible without sticky extraction or poor accuracy. I have done and intend to continue to do most of my 460 stuff with 240 and 300gr XTP Mags.

I have found that at "normal" handgun distance with the 240's, my groups tightened up as the charge level increased. I haven't yet tried my 300gr bullets as of yet... But I have a couple hundred on the shelf just waiting..

And I suppose I am really just picking fly excrement out of black pepper doing all of this without a chrony.... It's on the list..

 

[RIDE-RED 350r]

Pardon the rookie question but, is tighter throats a good thing, bad thing, or indifferent? I have a caliper (obviously since I load my own ammo LOL!) and can measure... I'm guessing measure at the bullet end of the chambers???

 

[arjay]

Ideally,they would be the same size as the barrel,but a bit larger is ok too (within reason) If they are smaller,things get tricky.

 

[BLUEDOT37]

Throat size

Pardon the rookie question but, is tighter throats a good thing, bad thing, or indifferent? I have a caliper (obviously since I load my own ammo LOL!) and can measure... I'm guessing measure at the bullet end of the chambers???

I've read the throats (ideally) should be .001" smaller than the bullet & the barrel's groove diameter .001" smaller than the throats. Essentially stepping diameters smaller. A caliper will get you in the ballpark but pin gages are better for measuring your throats. (I've used the heck out of the set I bought for $79 shipped) If you've got some pure lead slugs slightly larger than the throats (muzzle end of the cylinder) you can pound them thru & measure them with the calipers instead. Too much difference, either way, usually isn't desirable.

Slightly off topic, I loaded some 45 Colt, 454 Casull & 460 Mag cases to approximately the same velocity (as best I can tell from various manuals), 1350-1375fps using a Hornady 250gr XTP bullet & I4227 power, & the appropriate primers. I'm curious how much different each cartridge's grouping will be when shot in the 460. The 460 chambers are so much longer (~.500") which I'm pretty sure won't fair good for the 45 Colt & Casull loads.

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[buck460XVR]

I've gotten so as I like IMR4227 for the .460 straight across the board. Lil' Gun creates too much heat and the concerns of it and premature/excessive forcing cone erosion keeps it outta all my revolvers anymore. H110/W296 is my second choice, but it's more(IMHO) sensitive to ambient temps as 4227. Since I hunt in weather that ranges from 80 above to 15 below, I've seen pressure/velocity/accuracy consistency change more with H110/W296 than 4227. I too have a .460 with tight throats and find I need to stick to the lower side of most recipes to avoid sticky extraction. Thing is, one does not need to load the .460 to max to be effective against most North American Game. Grizzly and Polar bears may be the exception.

I prefer 300 grainers and IMR4227 for deer and the XTP-Mags and Deep Curls are equally accurate and terminally effective. IMR4227 does download well to moderate velocities, but will get dirtier as the powder charge gets lighter.

 

[Rule3]

Pardon the rookie question but, is tighter throats a good thing, bad thing, or indifferent? I have a caliper (obviously since I load my own ammo LOL!) and can measure... I'm guessing measure at the bullet end of the chambers???

You can not accurately measure them or barrel with calipers. You need to "slug" the bore/chamber as they say or use pin gauges Soft fishing lead weights work well.

About all I can say on the subject as out of all the revolvers I owned before they were swept away in the flood I have never slugged one yet. I buy my lead bullets so they are what they are. I have no leading issues.

 

[RIDE-RED 350r]

Thanks for the info on the measurements guys. Much appreciated.

I'm not competitive match shooter, so I think I'll just load to what my 460v likes and leave it at that.

Buck, I certainly don't hunt dangerous game with my 460 living in northern NY... I just like the fun factor of good stout 460 rounds and the potential for farther, flatter shooting (with more practice if course) than my 44 mags get when I am hunting.

The advice on Lil' Gun duly noted... Any test rounds I build will be few and careful inspection frequent when firing.

Been busy working on winter wood and a few other chores these last few days... Haven't had time to sit down at the loading bench.. But I will make up some test rounds with AA#9, AA5477, and maybe a bit of Lil' Gun for the sake of giving it an honest try. I hate to waste a pound of powder..

 

[Rule3]

I am searching for a 460 with a 5" barrel so I can use some of this info. I shoot 45 Colt so at least I can bump up those loads to Ruger /Contender loads untill I gather some of the pricy 460 brass!

Do you guys shoot and lead bullets or just the jacketed in the 460? Is leading a problem or the same as any other big caliber (bullet size and lead hardness) I use lead in 44 mag which is going pretty fast.

 

[BLUEDOT37]

460 test loads

I shoot 45 Colt so at least I can bump up those loads to Ruger /Contender loads untill I gather some of the pricy 460 brass!

Do you guys shoot and lead bullets or just the jacketed in the 460? Is leading a problem or the same as any other big caliber (bullet size and lead hardness) I use lead in 44 mag which is going pretty fast.

I've got a lot of S-L 45 Colt brass & I'm a fan of the 45 Colt +P (& hotter) loads which is why I first got a SRH 454 to shoot them in safely. Recently I got the 460 Carry because the SRH has loose throats which caused leading no matter what I tried (& I like the S&W a lot better anyway). The first cast lead 45 Colt loads I tried in the M460 leaded too. I went to the range today & tried that same bullet (245gr LRNFP, flat base, .452", BHN 16) in some 460 Hornady cases (MidSouth has them for $34 box/50) using extrapolated loads of 2400 & I4227 at ~1100fps. Big difference from the Colt cases. 2400 looked good & I4227 was ideal. Accuracy wasn't as good as the JHPs but they're a lot cheaper. I only made (20) because I wasn't too hopeful beforehand, but this is usable. My M460 has ~.4522 throats, a little bigger than I would like but doable. I believe 45LC & 454C lead won't shoot good in the 460 chambers because those cases are ~.500" shorter & the bullets have to travel that distance inside the .479" chamber until they get to the throats, which causes the "ultimate loose throat" condition.

I like to shoot a variety & not always the most powerful or the most expensive. Not much reduced loads data for the 460 but I took an idea from my M500 loads & tried them today. Using the 460 cases I loaded them with some 45 ACP Zero 230gr .451" JHPs (no cannelure of course) & worked up a load using Unique (which I've still got a bunch from a close-out sale decades ago I'm trying to burn-off ). I seated the JHPs deep enough that the tamper crimp just covers the bullets ogive forming a mild locking crimp over it. (I did not experience any bullet jump from these either.) The velocities ranged from ~1050fps to ~1250fps, best guess as I don't have a chrono. Zero bullets are pretty thickly jacketed, IMO, & I didn't see any issues with these loads. Accuracy wasn't stellar, but these bullets are half the price of the Hornady 250 XTPs that were. And these Unique loads are pleasantly surprising, but not unexpected from similar type loads in the M500.

The other "test" I did to satisfy my curiousity was to load some 45 Colt, 454 Casull & 460 Mag cases to approximately the same velocity (as best I can tell from various manuals), ~1350-1375fps using a Hornady 250gr XTP bullet, IMR4227 power, & the appropriate primers. Ignoring my inconsistencies, all three grouped very similar & I was pleased to see the shorter cases did so well at the distance (~12yds) I was shooting. Lead bullets in the shorter cases were all over the place at the same distance.

Sorry for the long post. Hopefully this is useful.

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[ruggyh]

Pardon the rookie question but, is tighter throats a good thing, bad thing, or indifferent?

I am indifferent to throat size (within reason). Just choose bullets and loads that work for the gun you are going to shoot that cartridge. I don't see the tighter throat in the 460 as a problem just load down below the point of the sticky extraction. Large throats will typically make finding a jacketed bullet difficult, shoot grouping will be poor when compared to correctly sized bullets for any given load. Once you get a chronograph you will most likely find you are are getting the velocity faster than you expected. One of the many reason to start low and work up with your charge weight.

Just a reminder that the highest velocity doesn't mean the best grouping. Grouping should be a shooters highest concern.

Be safe and good luck
Ruggy

 

[ruggyh]

I I believe 45LC & 454C lead won't shoot good in the 460 chambers because those cases are ~.500" shorter & the bullets have to travel that distance inside the .479" chamber until they get to the throats, which causes the "ultimate loose throat" condition.
.

I would agree here. Another reason to just use 460 brass if you are a hand loader, nothing to be gained using the shorter brass options.

On another note the .451 jacketed bullets typically won't produce the grouping accuracy close to .452 jacketed bullets. Another thing to remember the jacketed bullets designed to work with the 45 APC and 45 Colt, they were not intended to be pushed past 1600-1800 fps. Early on I experienced jacket separations with the XTPs before it was brought to my attention, now I look at bullet design before I even consider reloading any of them. I might mention that the XTP were also way slower with the same load applied, I don't believe the were sealing well which contributed to the poorer grouping.

I only comparing grouping at 50 or 100 yards, as shorter distances are not so telling.

Powders that work with typical revolver cartridges may produce ok results but I would recommend you choose powders with 80% or better case fill.

Good luck and be safe
Ruggy