5 Shot Snubby of CCW?

[Flyingfool]

Where is there a definitive place to get credible data on SELF DEFENSE statistics, especially proximity information. That is how close was the encounter between the bad guy and the armed civilian.

It would seem that if the vast majority of the SD situations occurred within about 3 feet and/or grappling with a single a single bad guy, then the revolver may be the best choice based on the odds. However if the majority of SD is outside of 6 feet and not in physical contact and/or more than one bad guy, the semi-auto mighr be the best choice.

One SD training class I took the Sherrif chief of police stated: “Remember, most predators travel and hunt in packs, and criminals are predators”

His point was twofold: first predators look for the weakest lamb in the herd. Don't be the weakest, pay attention, be alert, walk with intention, be on guard etc. secondly, if a bad guy makes himself known, expect him to NOT be alone. Engage the threat if necessary but look around and do not fixate ONLY on the perpetrator in fromt of you and Get blindsided, as his buddy is pissed off at you for shooting his friend, and attacks you from out Behind or to the side of you.

He also always reiterated that the best gunfight is the one you AVOID! Do not put yourself into bad places or situations/circumstances. and if you recognize you inadvertently stumbled into such a case. Get the hell out of there asap!

 

[Cal44]

Life is all about trade-offs.

I carry a 5 shot (or sometimes 6 shot 327 Federal) revolver.

I think it's adequate for the level of threat I face.

Also, if all I had was a 1911, I wouldn't carry it. To heavy, and too big to conceal in summer clothes -- t-shirt and shorts.

If I lived in an higher crime area where I felt a 1911 (or Glock 19, etc.) was really needed, I'd move to a better neighborhood.

My whole existence is not going to revolve around self defense -- where I never go out doors without being prepared for any possible problem. I have other things in my life.

Now I have been considered the possibility of moving to an auto like an LC9 -- which I can carry in my pocket and weighs the same as a revolver.

Perhaps the 8 rounds (7+1) of 9mm would offer an advantage over 6 rounds of 327 Federal or 5 rounds of 357 Magnum that I get with my pocket revolvers.

 

[BC38]

I've always figured I'd be dead if it came to the point that I needed to reload.

Well, if that line of thinking means you don't carry a reload, then if/when you're ever in that position, that pretty much becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy - doesn't it?

 

[Walkingwolf]

Well, if that line of thinking means you don't carry a reload, then if/when you're ever in that position, that pretty much becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy - doesn't it?

I carry reloads out of years of habit. BUT most bad guys do not give time outs to reload.

 

[Walkingwolf]

Three things tend to cure one hand semi auto limp wrist shooting. Hot ammo, custom light spring, or well worn semi auto. More power or lighter/worn spring seems to eliminate one hand problems.

 

[JayFramer]

I am at heart a revolver guy. I have always loved handguns, particularly revolvers. My first love was single action cowboy revolvers. As an adult, especially as a parent, I did not see the practicality of those for self-defense. I soon learned to love the S&W DA revolver (and a couple of Ruger SP101s) for their practicality as a CCW. They had to be all steel of course. After a short while, I found that they just weren't very practical due to the weight. I could carry them, but not very comfortably. I then evolved to the 642 hammerless J frame. Just a great carry gun. Light weight and practical. I did not feel outgunned. I like durability and reliability in a pistol. "Plastic" guns were just not on my radar. Finally, I reasoned that Glocks had been on the market for a very long time and have proven to be both durable and reliable. So, I transitioned to a S&W Shield. The Shield was much easier to shoot compared to the J frame due to me having developed cysts on the tendons of my shooting hands.

Recently, I read an article. I think it was by Massad Ayoob. He described how in many instances, a revolver just wasn't enough. In one situation, the assailant was so obese that six shots was not enough to stop him. In other cases, psychosis was a factor in an assailant failing to be stopped. Carrying a J frame with a couple of speed strips or speed loaders would give me 15 rounds of ammo. A Shield with an 8 round mag and two 8 round spare mags would give me 24 rounds. Just as easily carried as the J frame. The Shield has proven to be a reliable weapon. We often say, "It is better to have a gun and not need it then to need a gun and not have it". The same can be said of ammunition "It is better to have more rounds and not need them then to need them and not have them". We carry our weapons because we are preparing for the unexpected. With the unexpected, you never know what to expect, so expect the worst and prepare for it as best you can. I can carry a Shield just as easily and inexpensively as I can a J frame, with more ammo. An auto can jam, but so can a revolver. Today's autos have improved so much and so has the ammo. I love a revolver as much as the next guy. And, it often depends on your environment what threats you face. On the road, traveling away from home, my Shield is now my go to gun. Many people carry a revolver for the sake of nostalgia. My family's lives are too important to gamble for nostalgia's sake.

Thems a fightin words, pard.

I carry a Ruger's Blackhawk for defense and its my bedside gun. Nostalgia ain't got nothing to do with it. Sure as the day is long my trusty six gun can get er done. Don't need no more than six, if you do you can't shoot. It was enough for Earp and Hickok, it's enough for me (and YOU) too.

 

[ispcapt]

I can assure all that when the rounds are inbound no matter what you are carrying you'll feel it isn't a big enough gun, enough guns, and enough ammo.
On Oct 2, 1996 we were attempting to arrest a subject wanted on a warrant. I was off duty after hours when I got a call from one of my SAs that he had located the subject in a hotel room. I was at dinner with my wife carrying my S&W 649 and had 2 speed loaders. When we attempted the arrest he opened up on us with a TEC9 in one hand and a Colt Mustang .380 in the other, firing 11 rounds at us as fast as he could work the triggers. That 649 felt pretty small and not enough. Wish I had a bigger gun, with more ammo, and more guns on me.
11 months later we were attempting to make an arrest on a woman holed up in her house. She was armed with a Marlin 12 ga loaded with Hornady sabot slugs. I was carrying my issued S&W 5904, a S&W 645, the aforementioned S&W 649, and a Remington 12 ga. When she let loose with one of those slugs that went thru 2 sides of a garage I can assure everyone that what I was carrying seemed pretty small and not enough.
And with both incidents it didn't matter that I had plenty of friends heavily armed with handguns, shotguns, and SMGs. What I was carrying was all that matter to me at the time.

 

[Etalksalot]

Bingo ! (that's how I fool myself into carrying a snubby)

I carry my little 1971-72 Model 36 every single day. I could plan for being attacked by a mob of people because it has happened to people before, but I've also heard people have won the lottery too, but I'm not making my preparations for when I win it.

 

[Etalksalot]

Do you see this scenario as being the most likely situation in which you would need to defend yourself with deadly force? If so, then you are right in your thinking.

Not all of us see it that way. I do see it that way when I'm out running in my residential neighborhood, but not for day-to-day carry.

This incident just occurred at a grocery store. SHORT VERSION: Couple in a grocery store, three malcontents follow them outside. The trio then followed the couple out of the store into the parking lot, where there was an exchange of "a large amount of gunfire."

I see this sort of defensive situation as far more likely than what you describe above. The self-defense events I read about in various sources support that belief as well. I would not want to be in that situation with a five or six shot revolver, even with a speed-loader or two as spares. Nine shots from my 1911 and one or two spare 8-round mags would make me a lot more comfortable, as would 14 rounds of .357 with another 12 in a spare magazine.

Being equipped is a critical step in self-defense, but I think you would agree that it is impossible to be equipped for every scenario. Thus it is foolish to be better equipped for a less likely scenario at the expense of one more likely. Now, if you genuinely believe that grappling with robbers is more likely than defense from a few feet out or more, then you are wise to pattern your equipment for that scenario. For me, where I live, and the types of crime that occur, a snubby would be foolish.

If I were a criminal and attempting to rob someone, provided I'm close enough, if they went to pull a gun, the first thing I'd do is try and get my hand on it and the other would be throwing punches. However, if I were a criminal I'd be smart enough to bring my own gun, make sure I catch someone off guard and if they went for a gun shoot them before they could even get it out. I'd say nowadays and auto or revolver would be sufficient for SD. I get the logic on wanting to have more ammo because I was one of those people my whole life. Never used to like revolvers because of lack of ammo and longer reload times. Once I sat and thought about it though, it seems like it's more about who gets the drop on who. If someone creeps up behind you and has a gun pointed at your back, don't matter if you have a 5 shot 38 special or a 21 round 9mm Sig 320 (with the extended mag), if they see you making any sudden movements, you could be shot dead before you ever get it out. If you see something suspicion going on and happen to get your gun out first, even if 2 or 3 people are standing in front of you, which one you think will go for their gun first? I can cap 2 of them at least before any get their guns out and still have 3 more shots. This argument over auto versus revolver will never have an answer. It's all about whatmakes people feel safe. After that, it's all about your awareness. If someone is completely oblivious to anything going on around them, it won't matter what kind of gun they have. Or, say some teenage kid walking down the street looking for someone to shoot as an initiation to a gang (they were doing that around Chicago for a while a few years back), it's gonna be hard to see that coming. If you just randomly get picked and they bust out a gun and fire away, you may not even be able to pull your gun. There again, the type of gun makes no added benefit regardless of what kind it is. I feel perfectly fine carrying my 5 shot 38 special and don't think twice about it. Anything is possible, so I could have a Shotgun and assault rifle in the car "just in case" and have several handguns with backup mags and everything because I might get swarmed by people trying to hurt or rob me. Those things have and do happen. However, people also win the lottery all the time, but I'm not calling realtors trying to have a house lined up "just in case." personally, I couldn't care less what anyone carries and I wish the revolver trend that's picking up would go away so I can buy these old Smiths and Colts for cheaper, but they still make great weapons. It always seemed to me, if someone chooses an auto because it has more rounds "just in case" that they should also buy a gun in the biggest caliber possible "just in case." why not carry a .45 or bigger just because you "may" need it? At what point does being prepared end and what if's take over? Where does one draw the line? I carry a revolver which is no better or worse than anyone else's choice in my book. Personally, if I had to go up against someone in a shootout, I'd prefer they had and auto just because jams to occur more often than in a revolver. That's just me, but that's how I feel about it. I carry a revolver, speed strips and a pair of brass knuckles with a spring assisted knife inside it. That's all I need to keep me and my dog safe. However, I'm also broke and don't make a good target to rob so there's always that. Problem is that too many people pay no attention to what goes on around them. As time moves forward, more and more people bury themselves in their phones everywhere they go. Walking down the street, in a store anywhere. I think awareness of your surroundings is more important than what you carry as is who gets the drop on who.

 

[Etalksalot]

I can assure all that when the rounds are inbound no matter what you are carrying you'll feel it isn't a big enough gun, enough guns, and enough ammo.
On Oct 2, 1996 we were attempting to arrest a subject wanted on a warrant. I was off duty after hours when I got a call from one of my SAs that he had located the subject in a hotel room. I was at dinner with my wife carrying my S&W 649 and had 2 speed loaders. When we attempted the arrest he opened up on us with a TEC9 in one hand and a Colt Mustang .380 in the other, firing 11 rounds at us as fast as he could work the triggers. That 649 felt pretty small and not enough. Wish I had a bigger gun, with more ammo, and more guns on me.
11 months later we were attempting to make an arrest on a woman holed up in her house. She was armed with a Marlin 12 ga loaded with Hornady sabot slugs. I was carrying my issued S&W 5904, a S&W 645, the aforementioned S&W 649, and a Remington 12 ga. When she let loose with one of those slugs that went thru 2 sides of a garage I can assure everyone that what I was carrying seemed pretty small and not enough.
And with both incidents it didn't matter that I had plenty of friends heavily armed with handguns, shotguns, and SMGs. What I was carrying was all that matter to me at the time.

I think that is far more logical than arguing over which type of gun is better. Tha k you for sharing that. This debate on which is better is a Neverending argument that will never have a happy conclusion. There will always be those in favor of both sides. I think it's nice that we even have THAT many choices out there!

 

[crazyphil]

Guys who have been in many more gunfights than I, Jim Cirillo NYPD,
who's record was 19 & 0, and Bob Stasch Chicago PD, 14 gunfights,
both said the one shot stop is very rare. Jim only saw 2 one-shot stops,
both to the brain. Bob only saw one.
One shot stops with a handgun, even in the hands of professionals, is
extremely rare. On the other hand, the majority of self defense shootings
are resolved with 2.7 shots.
So carrying the 5 shot revolver, as I and many others do, we know we
are betting with the odds in our favor, but it is still better than falling into
the fetal position and crying for our mommy.

 

[66 shooter]

Hey, as Jeff Cooper once said.....if you can't get it done with 5 rounds then you should probably re-think your situation.

 

[66 shooter]

By the way.....my favorite every day carry is my Model 36 in a OWB pancake holster with 2 Speed strips. Since I retired from the LEO job, I don't go sticking my nose in other people's business anymore, so this will serve me well.

 

[Etalksalot]

Thems a fightin words, pard.

I carry a Ruger's Blackhawk for defense and its my bedside gun. Nostalgia ain't got nothing to do with it. Sure as the day is long my trusty six gun can get er done. Don't need no more than six, if you do you can't shoot. It was enough for Earp and Hickok, it's enough for me (and YOU) too.

I wholeheartedly agree. If I can't take down someone with 5 shots, I don't need to be pulling out my gun and trying to begin with. I carry a 1971 Model 36 because I love the old school look, so some nostalgia plays into it for me, but if I didn't carry an old 5 shot, I'd carry a new one anyhow. People seem to think these days that if it isn't brand new and the most state of the art option available, you may as well be throwing a rock. I say screw that. I don't need 21 rounds of ammo. If I do, then I should be finding a way out instead of trying to engage the situation to begin with. Hell, if anything, at the very least, 5 shots can get me out the door or away from the situation at least. I don't have kids, I only have my dog, and regardless of what anyone says, I love my dog as much as anyone loves their kids. My dog is my kid to me. I'd never let anyone hurt her or take her from me. I feel we are safe with a revolver and that I can diffuse any serious situation with 5 shots and some back up rounds. I'm not saying one style of gun is better than the other, but a lot of people are real quick to discredit a revolver because of ammo capacity. I used to. Growing up, I've been shooting since I was 7 or 8 years old and never liked revolvers because I listened to the hype. Then I realized I'll probably never need it anyways and if I do, it'll most likely be up close and only a few shots exchanged. Yeah, anything can happen, a rock could fall out of the sky and hit me in the head, but I don't walk around wearing a Helmut. I don't even wear one on a motorcycle even after going down at 60 mph. I also don't wear my seatbelt, but a crash is always possible. I'm still alive and fine to comment on this post. I am at the point now (from someone who swore he'd never own a revolver) to having 6 of them and only 3 autos and I only plan on buying revolvers from here on except for a 1911 and a Beretta 92FS. The Beretta is for nostalgia's sake. That was a popular gun when I was younger and that's the only reason I want one is because I have always liked them. In reality it's about who gets the drop on who first and the first one to get off an accurate shot. Those are far more important than kind or caliber.

 

[ispcapt]

Thems a fightin words, pard.

I carry a Ruger's Blackhawk for defense and its my bedside gun. Nostalgia ain't got nothing to do with it. Sure as the day is long my trusty six gun can get er done. Don't need no more than six, if you do you can't shoot. It was enough for Earp and Hickok, it's enough for me (and YOU) too.

I'd be interested in hearing about all the shoot outs you've been involved in. How many rounds fired? How many people were shooting? What was the available cover?
Someone with all the deadly force experience of you, Earp, and Hickok should be very helpful to those who haven't been involved in any shootings.

 

[oldsman70]

I carry a Kimber K6 with a speed strip
Me Also

 

[haywood]

I guess you got to do what gives you peace of mind. I think my 2 J-frames and the reloads that I carry is enough to keep me safe. So far so good.

 

[nachogrande]

THE WOMAN IN THE LIQUOR STORE.

The one that comes to mind is the mother & daughter liquor store shooting (and other convenient store shootings). A home invasion video. I've also read/seen video's about multiple armed thug scenarios.

Based on some of the responses, this is why I've been hesitant to ask this question. But I do appreciate them. My goal isn't to change anyone's thoughts, just understand better.

As for me, I accept my J frame limitations while at home. But it's also based on my current home security set-up (cameras, barricaded front door, neighborhood, etc.).

After her gun was taken from her (in this particular case) she was lucky the gun was empty. That's my takeaway anyhow.

 

[Etalksalot]

I hear ya !
Amazing how under even that kind of stress/adrenaline dump his muscle memory still over ruled. Interesting to note your comment about you fight like you trained because of that general rule you never surrender your gun and yet in that Onion field incident that gets his partner killed, so it seems that panic is still there. No matter what the training is.

I mention this because we hear a lot about what people will do if confronted. Truth is even the best don't really know.

I can recall every action I took over my life when I was confronted and if you are a person who over reacts or is hot head to begin with might be a bad idea to even carry a stick.

Another truth is most training goes right out the window and when it's all said and done it was luck.
Case in point many years ago out in Cali, got held up from around 40 feet away down low behind a car door and looking down the barrel of a rifle. And I argued with him.

He finally told me to walk before he killed me.
If I make a play for a gun I'm dead before my hand gets to it.

The shocking value to that was it didn't dawn on me for quite awhile and even now 40 years later I still can't believe I argued with him. It was a gang initiation of you got to kill somebody to join.

I agree. That's basically the point I made in other comments. I'm that case it didn't matter what kind of gun you had or what caliber it was, they had the drop on you and that was that. Good story. You definitely do not know what you'd do until your life depended on it.

 

[HorizontalMike]

Well, I think the world I live in (as a retired computer engineer) is a lot different than the situation faced by a police officer.

I don't get involved stopping crimes that don't involve me or my wife, I don't arrest bad guys.

If I see a problem I run away from it. If an officer sees a problem he runs towards it.

So I think 5 rounds can stop a mugging at an ATM (for example).

Frankly, I'm thinking the opposite from you in that I think I might need more rounds if my home is invaded by multiple bad guys.

I'm considering keeping something with 8 or more rounds on me at home. Or perhaps two J frames.

If at home, may I suggest a S&W 627PC w/8-shots. Love mine, as it is same caliber as my other handguns and has enough rounds to "almost" be a pistolero...