5 Shot Snubby of CCW?


I think for me, 5 is probably adequate, but for a slightly different reason. I practice shooting side by side IPSC targets at 1 yard from concealment. I can put 4 shots COM in two targets (2 each) in a little over two seconds on a square range, using a shot timer, while not actually being assaulted (limited stress). If there was a real-life third attacker, I don't think I'm going to get shots on target fast enough before the third could draw and shoot me. Three or more vs one, the odds seem to start going south really quickly. Doesn't mean I wouldn't try, but 3 vs 1 isn't good no matter how many rounds you have.
 
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Does anybody have some links to all these videos(or news reports) of civilians carrying concealed being forced to engage multiple armed assailants in ranged gunfights, because I'm just not finding them. And while you're at it, please share all the incidents you can find where civilians had to perform a reload. Thanks.

While not quite 100% responsive to the structured question, this story immediately came to mind from two and a half months ago, noon time weekday and presumably a combat reload would have been wise....

Oklahoma Man Uses AR-15 to Kill Three Teen Home Intruders

I would also point out the well-covered Trolley Square mall shooting, where the good guy with a gun was extremely limited in the action he could take because he had eight in the gun (IIRC) and no reload. After he took a few shots at the active shooter, he was at a major disadvantage due to low ammo, regardless of his considerable heroics. To the posed question, you do not reload when you lack a reload.

Those real life cases resonate with me because (1) I have been to Trolley Square and the Omaha Van Maur personally and (2) know at least one unarmed person who hid in the back of a store two years ago during a similar mall shooting incident (for hours... in a mostly non-CCW state... waiting for LE to clear a four-story mall). Add in the outlier Nairobi mall as the most worst case along with other mall attacks like St. Cloud MN, Portland OR, et al. The series of mall incidents absolutely reinforces my thought process on what is well within the realm of possibility in any public space, including ones I have personally found myself in.
 
I have no issue with carrying a five shot "snubbie." I also don't feel under gunned carrying it.

But my five shot snubbie has a big hole in the barrel.





All jokes aside, I just returned home after qualifying with the 296. It was painful. I carried a 342ti loaded with .38 +P ammo for years and I told everyone that that gun was 364 days of pleasure and one day of pain (qualification day). Unfortunately the recoil with the 296 was much more painful. After 60 rounds I had blood dripping from the web of my right hand. Luckily I qualified as I could not have fired another round.
 
You guys with your newfangled J frames.

All I need is my I-frame and five rounds of mighty .38 S&W lead round nose.

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The zip strip is for show. I don't carry a reload.

I used to go into really bad people's homes, pull them out, and take them to jail, sometimes for ever. Now I go to Home Depot and buy grass seed. I figure the Terrier can handle it.
 
" But real world stats for cop killings look horrible when they where just using revolvers, albeit a good percentage where facing rifles but a good many got killed just reloading."

I don't believe there are documented examples of police officers being killed while trying to reload a revolver.
 
Does anybody have some links to all these videos(or news reports) of civilians carrying concealed being forced to engage multiple armed assailants in ranged gunfights, because I'm just not finding them. And while you're at it, please share all the incidents you can find where civilians had to perform a reload. Thanks.

Take a look at this one. [ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWSkfniQ63Y&t=199s&has_verified=1[/ame]
Only one assailant but two defenders. 5 shot snubby ran out so the second defender chipped in with shots from a small automatic. If the first women had more than 5 shots whe would not have gotten pistol whipped.
 
" But real world stats for cop killings look horrible when they where just using revolvers, albeit a good percentage where facing rifles but a good many got killed just reloading."

I don't believe there are documented examples of police officers being killed while trying to reload a revolver.

I believe at least one of the CHP officers killed in the Newhall incident was in the process of attempting a reload.

In the 1986 Miami FBI shootout reloading was an issue as well.
 
Take a look at this one. Mom and Daughter Prove Untrained, Unskilled People Can Defend Themselves | Active Self Protection - YouTube
Only one assailant but two defenders. 5 shot snubby ran out so the second defender chipped in with shots from a small automatic. If the first women had more than 5 shots whe would not have gotten pistol whipped.
Videos like that make me want to carry my 686 loaded with .357. It looked like the shots hit the bad guy but didn't slow him down until much later.

He was only a couple yards away, but a moving target.
 
I don't see any practical benefit to going with 9mm over .38 special +p in a snub revolver. There's a lot more options available in .38, plus you don't run into the issues with crimp-jump and moon-clips like you do when using an autoloader round in a wheelgun. And I personally find the Ruger LCR trigger to be horrible. It was very easy for me to short-stroke it in rapid fire and I've seen others mentioning having the same complaints about it. Lighter doesn't equal better. And using 1 or 2 isolated cases to justify a particular choice isn't logical since there is no limit to it. There have been incidents where a Glock 17 wouldn't have held enough ammunition. In the case with the two women in the liquor store, it's just one case and there were countless mistakes made. I'm not them in that situation and never will be. You have to consider what is most likely to occur in your particular set of circumstances and and go from there basing your weapon choices and training on being the best prepared for the most probable scenarios. No matter what you choose, there will be compromises and trade-offs.
 
You guys with your newfangled J frames.

All I need is my I-frame and five rounds of mighty .38 S&W lead round nose.

HTcrcV1.jpg


Z5xePrg.jpg


tqtzJd0.jpg


The zip strip is for show. I don't carry a reload.

I used to go into really bad people's homes, pull them out, and take them to jail, sometimes for ever. Now I go to Home Depot and buy grass seed. I figure the Terrier can handle it.

I love that gun.
 
I am at heart a revolver guy. I have always loved handguns, particularly revolvers. My first love was single action cowboy revolvers. As an adult, especially as a parent, I did not see the practicality of those for self-defense. I soon learned to love the S&W DA revolver (and a couple of Ruger SP101s) for their practicality as a CCW. They had to be all steel of course. After a short while, I found that they just weren't very practical due to the weight. I could carry them, but not very comfortably. I then evolved to the 642 hammerless J frame. Just a great carry gun. Light weight and practical. I did not feel outgunned. I like durability and reliability in a pistol. "Plastic" guns were just not on my radar. Finally, I reasoned that Glocks had been on the market for a very long time and have proven to be both durable and reliable. So, I transitioned to a S&W Shield. The Shield was much easier to shoot compared to the J frame due to me having developed cysts on the tendons of my shooting hands.

Recently, I read an article. I think it was by Massad Ayoob. He described how in many instances, a revolver just wasn't enough. In one situation, the assailant was so obese that six shots was not enough to stop him. In other cases, psychosis was a factor in an assailant failing to be stopped. Carrying a J frame with a couple of speed strips or speed loaders would give me 15 rounds of ammo. A Shield with an 8 round mag and two 8 round spare mags would give me 24 rounds. Just as easily carried as the J frame. The Shield has proven to be a reliable weapon. We often say, "It is better to have a gun and not need it then to need a gun and not have it". The same can be said of ammunition "It is better to have more rounds and not need them then to need them and not have them". We carry our weapons because we are preparing for the unexpected. With the unexpected, you never know what to expect, so expect the worst and prepare for it as best you can. I can carry a Shield just as easily and inexpensively as I can a J frame, with more ammo. An auto can jam, but so can a revolver. Today's autos have improved so much and so has the ammo. I love a revolver as much as the next guy. And, it often depends on your environment what threats you face. On the road, traveling away from home, my Shield is now my go to gun. Many people carry a revolver for the sake of nostalgia. My family's lives are too important to gamble for nostalgia's sake.
 
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Another thing, most people thing that if you have a J frame, you are putting all 5 rounds on target and if you have a high capacity auto, you are spraying and praying and missing your target. Who says that if you have a lot of ammo you are missing a lot?
 
I am at heart a revolver guy. I have always loved handguns, particularly revolvers. My first love was single action cowboy revolvers. As an adult, especially as a parent, I did not see the practicality of those for self-defense. I soon learned to love the S&W DA revolver (and a couple of Ruger SP101s) for their practicality as a CCW. They had to be all steel of course. After a short while, I found that they just weren't very practical due to the weight. I could carry them, but not very comfortably. I then evolved to the 642 hammerless J frame. Just a great carry gun. Light weight and practical. I did not feel outgunned. I like durability and reliability in a pistol. "Plastic" guns were just not on my radar. Finally, I reasoned that Glocks had been on the market for a very long time and have proven to be both durable and reliable. So, I transitioned to a S&W Shield. The Shield was much easier to shoot compared to the J frame due to me having developed cysts on the tendons of my shooting hands.

Recently, I read an article. I think it was by Massad Ayoob. He described how in many instances, a revolver just wasn't enough. In one situation, the assailant was so obese that six shots was not enough to stop him. In other cases, psychosis was a factor in an assailant failing to be stopped. Carrying a J frame with a couple of speed strips or speed loaders would give me 15 rounds of ammo. A Shield with an 8 round mag and two 8 round spare mags would give me 24 rounds. Just as easily carried as the J frame. The Shield has proven to be a reliable weapon. We often say, "It is better to have a gun and not need it then to need a gun and not have it". The same can be said of ammunition "It is better to have more rounds and not need them then to need them and not have them". We carry our weapons because we are preparing for the unexpected. With the unexpected, you never know what to expect, so expect the worst and prepare for it as best you can. I can carry a Shield just as easily and inexpensively as I can a J frame, with more ammo. An auto can jam, but so can a revolver. Today's autos have improved so much and so has the ammo. I love a revolver as much as the next guy. And, it often depends on your environment what threats you face. On the road, traveling away from home, my Shield is now my go to gun. Many people carry a revolver for the sake of nostalgia. My family's lives are too important to gamble for nostalgia's sake.

From the referenced article....

"The subject was a grossly obese man with a death wish and a .357 magnum, who opened fire on the officer. In the moments that followed, Martin went through two magazines with his department issue Smith & Wesson model 59 service pistol, firing 29 shots and striking the subject 15 times in the torso and twice in the head. It was the last bullet to the head that put the gunman down as Martin's slide locked back for the second time. He reloaded his final magazine and cautiously approached to find the gunman dead. "

That incident was involving a police officer whose job it is to intentially engage and pursue. I would agree, high capacity autoloaders make the most sense for Law Enforcement as well as many home defense(why I own several Glocks) and business defense scenarios, but my likely needs when carrying concealed are very different. There have been civilian incidents involving high round counts, but nearly all of them are HD or an individual protecting a high-risk business like the Lance Thomas incidents or liquor and convenient stores. I don't nor would I work in such places. I also wouldn't intervene in situations that don't concern me directly. And pointing to rare outliers to justify a choice isn't sensible.

At the range, most people will probably perform better(shooting and reloading) with a compact auto compared with a snub revolver, but what most people do at the range has very little in common with most self-defense scenarios, which are reactive, at very close-quarters to contact distance and involve very few shots fired with the odds of needing(or having the opportunity) to reload being equivelant to being struck by lightning. I see no need to concern myself with lightning stikes all too much either since I don't intentionally put myself at undue risk for it just as I don't when it comes to personal defense i.e. the rules of stupids; don't go to stupid places with stupid people at stupid times and do stupid things.

In terms of the armed civilian being forced(as opposed to intentionally engaging/intervening), I'm just not finding any appreciable amount of incidents where the capacity of a revolver is inadequate nor is anyone producing them. Out of the thousands of incidents reported in statistics, videos or news reports I've studied, the percentage where the capacity of a revolver is an issue is a small fraction of 1%. The vast majority of civilian cases took place at very close range. The long-range gunfight against multiple armed assailants seems to be a common fantasy of many gun owners that carry concealed, but it simply isn't reality. Violence against civilians in general occurs at extremely close distances-with fists, knives, clubs and even with guns. Most people don't carry a gun on a daily basis, so we have a relatively limited pool of incidents to learn from, so maybe also consider the types of violence as a whole and how a gun would figure into the equation had the defender been armed. The possibility is there for needing high capacity, but the need for a weapon that is quick into action and will be reliable in all circumstances is much greater.

Consider the following incident, which I don't think is at all an improbable scenario in most circumstances. Which would you rather have in that situation; an enclosed hammer snub revolver or a Glock 19/17? I would choose the snub every time. The snubby will be quicker to access, get into the fight, offer better weapon retention(they will most likely either run or try to disarm you), and the snub will run reliably in that environment. I'm not confident any auto would and I've done a lot of H2H and ECQ training over the years that most haven't. What's better...5 rounds from a gun that you retain or one or none from a gun that you lose?

[ame]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qqgCtdHFLfU[/ame]

What if it's just one assailant? While this particular video is a law enforcement incident, I think it is still illustrative of the dynamics as physical assaults obviously routinely happen to civilians as well, whereas running gun battles do not.The auto malfunctioned just as we see time and again in force-on-force training.


[ame]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=23c7ovuSd2U[/ame]
 
Considering the speed and violence of a home invasion, why do you feel 5 rds is enough in your house?

Why is 8 the right number? Or 10? Or 20?

Everything is somewhat of a compromise, short of an A-10 Warthog.

Check out the big brain on Bret! Lol sorry, I saw your signature from Pulp Fiction, that's one of my favorite scenes. I have a 5 and a 6 shot revolver in the event someone were to break in. I figure if pulling a gun doesn't stop the person, a couple rounds should. I live alone and have no kids, so I have guns stashed all over my apartment, throwing knives, large knives, clubs, everything lol. I would feel sorry for anyone breaking into my pad. I'd imagine if someone did break in and even if they had a couple buddies with them, once they hear a couple shots being popped off, they have no idea what kind of gun I have in the dark and the loudness of the 357 popping in a small room will be enough to make most people dip out quickly. I'd venture to say any gun would make most people leave. Plus one benefit of being broke is I have nothing worth stealing! Jokes on them! They might feel so bad they may even leave me 20 bucks haha.

On a side note, have you ever seen Jackie Brown?? My favorite movie from Quentin Tarentino by far! If you haven't seen it, check it out.
 
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