6-rd 4513 TSW! How Desirable? Value? Differences vs others?

[ASP DEVEL]

Hi guys,
Asking for a friend.
How desirable is a nice 6-rd 4513 TSW? No box, other than generic modern plastic blue, but 6 rd mag and some pricy OEM 8 rd mags as well as aftermarkets w/Wolff+ springs swapped in. 8+1=35 ounces so it is a VERY nice .45 carry.

What is the Value to a collector? In general all none TSW's are pretty wanted, a 4513 TSW more so, and a early 6-rd still even more is that a correct assessment?
Do you think the .45's in general are just going to appreciate in value?

Do you think a 3rd Gen collection put together sold as a whole might do better than separate?

Do you think they got more TLC than later 7 round versions? Tighter than none-TSW's .45's?

Were known to be very accurate because the thicker longer rails than none-tsws or heavier 4516?

How much nicer really is a Shorty or CQB or Recon compared to there much higher cost? What differences? Like Bushings on the Shorties (possibly others) did they really make a big accuracy improvement? (since .40 is out of favor if I could find a shorty40 reasonably I would grab one). Does anyone have pics of 4513 and Shorty, CQB, Recon they could post?

(Unfortunately not allowed to post vids-wish allowed for Rare stuff).

Thanks, think this attaches a couple pics I have

 

[4T5GUY]

Was that you in the videos you posted or this “friend”?

I think most people that have a Pre-Rail 4513TSW hold on to them. They are nice, compact and accurate pistols. The shorter grip frame and tang are a plus for me. A 6 of 10 rated one sold last week for just under $550.00. The latter 7rnd ones have co-witnessed/numbered parts that all stayed together like the PC’s. I think the 7rnd Non-Railed ones are harder to find. Thanks to a heads up from 18DAI, (dang he’s missed,) I got one a few years ago.

Where as the TSW’s were tighter and got more build attention than the Non TSW’s, the PC examples are exceedingly perfect.

Jim

Does anyone have pics of 4513 and Shorty, CQB, Recon they could post?

 

[ASP DEVEL]

Thanks....
I've lurked off and on to learn what I could about 3rd Gens and didn't know about those other models until I did so.

18DAI seemed to know everything, and didn't know he had passed that's too bad.

Is that Pic of your collection or one that just went around? Thanks for finding it.

Would the one in pic I posted be a 7 or 8? Only 9/10's Minty and With matching box?

Do you happen to remember the one that sold recently, how many mags it had? That's got to sway heavily with value of any .45 it would seem.

Based on your pic and post...so the 6 round version had a slightly shorter beavertail tang then? And different grips or just chopped down ones? I can't seem to look at your pic while writing this.

What can you tell me about differences, and numbers made of the shorty45 (was there only 1 batch in .45?), CQB, and Recon?

Seems since .40 out of favor, occasionally a Shorty40 (3 batches I believe) can be found not too unreasonable it seems. I believe .40 may make a comeback someday.

Thanks

 

[Heymatt]

http://smith-wessonforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=511162&d=1619843175
4513TSW no rail, 6 rounder that I had for a short time. Came with matching box, paperwork and 2 mags.
Another forum member now owns it.

 

[ASP DEVEL]

Thank you, cheers

 

[gasaman]

Here's my 4553TSW.....

 

[ASP DEVEL]

Nice...and not as big a bump on the back as the 9mm dao's...

Didn't even know they made that model.

Same some were 6 and some 7 rd?

 

[BAM-BAM]

Had one in the early 90s..... great gun........ only problem was that the 6rd mags were hard to find.. Gun had a short run/life which aggregated the issue .

FWIW traded mine off for a Sig 245.... chopped 220 and mags "were" easy to find.

 

[xfarfuldog]

Third gen - whatever the market will bear?? The smaller models (as in revolvers) always bring a premium. I have owned 4506's and a 4566. Presently own a 3913, 6906 and a 4516. The full size 8 round mags can bring ridiculous prices. After selling my 4566 I stupidly sold IIFC 13 factory 8 rounders to a forum member.

At a gun show today there was a 4506 for sale for $ 1100. For sale not sold. I know a guy who has 5 various third gen 45's for sale. He wants $ 4500 for all including 23 factory 8 round mags. He has only received an offer for $ 2500. I've tried to buy the extra mags but he won't sell. He thinks each 45 is worth $ 700 without any magazines. Each gun should be sold with 2 mags (5 x 2 = 10) so he has 13 extra mags. The 45's are in OK not great shape. I do not think he will ever be able to sell them as a group.

 

[gasaman]

Nice...and not as big a bump on the back as the 9mm dao's...

Didn't even know they made that model.

Same some were 6 and some 7 rd?

Mine in pics is the 6rd mag. It is the original version. The 4553TSW w/ the black rail riveted to frame is the 7rd version.

 

[Fastbolt]

While the short-lived pre-rail 4513TSW with the cutaway grip frame (6rd mag) was a nice aluminum-framed compact (I ordered one when they were first released), the better value was the workhorse 457 and subsequent 457S (stainless slide). Granted, the early 457's had single side manual safety/decockers, and those less-then-wonder plastic sights, but they were the compact .45's that didn't need anything more than word-of-mouth to sell well.

The early models didn't have the loaded chamber inspection port in the barrel tab, and still required the machined channel on the R/side of the slide (to remove the ambi lever), and some of the refinements of the later productions 4513TSW's (mostly seen inside, and not necessarily easily, if you didn't know what to look for).

The early 4513 had a shorter, more abbreviated grip tang, too.

The wide/flat buttplates created for the model, to fill out the side-to-side fit under the grip, and make a flat vertical surface below the front strap, were nice. The curved buttplates which came on the CS45 at that time, and were the standard buttplate for the 457's and later production 4513's, were interesting.

My '99 vintage 4513TSW.



My 4513 (top), and an issued one I carried until my retirement (bottom). The issued one came with NS, and had the blackened stainless MIM manual safety and slide stop lever assembly.


I ordered a bunch of the 6rd TSW mags back then, but they were still surfacing now and again, even after the standard 4513TSW replaced the early one. We ordered a crate of 4513/4566TSW mags once, and one of the older 6rd TSW mags was mixed in with them. Then, another time the factory mistakenly sent us a small box of a dozen or so 6rd 4513TSW mags, but actually meant for another agency (which we shipped back).

It's getting hard to find even the standard 7rd 4513TSW mags nowadays, since the guns have been declared obsolete. Some mag parts are available from some S&W vendors, but not the mag bodies.

 

[GerSan69]

Unless a guy has all of at least one group of 3rd Gens, like all the 9s or all the 45s, all in like-new condition with boxes and papers, don't even waste time trying to sell as a group, especially for a premium. There's probably less than 10 people nationwide with the necessary combination of money and desire to buy and I don't think they'd settle for "used and abused." (Just a wild guess.)

My 4513TSW, 6-round no rail, isn't going anywhere at any price. It came with 1 mag (and my CS45 had one, so there's two I could use with either.) It's my only TSW, so I don't see letting it go. I looked up the thread I started on it when I got it.... surprised that it was almost 5 years ago already.
Heh...4513TSW

 

[ASP DEVEL]

While the short-lived pre-rail 4513TSW with the cutaway grip frame (6rd mag) was a nice aluminum-framed compact (I ordered one when they were first released), the better value was the workhorse 457 and subsequent 457S (stainless slide). Granted, the early 457's had single side manual safety/decockers, and those less-then-wonder plastic sights, but they were the compact .45's that didn't need anything more than word-of-mouth to sell well.

The early models didn't have the loaded chamber inspection port in the barrel tab, and still required the machined channel on the R/side of the slide (to remove the ambi lever), and some of the refinements of the later productions 4513TSW's (mostly seen inside, and not necessarily easily, if you didn't know what to look for).

The early 4513 had a shorter, more abbreviated grip tang, too.

The wide/flat buttplates created for the model, to fill out the side-to-side fit under the grip, and make a flat vertical surface below the front strap, were nice. The curved buttplates which came on the CS45 at that time, and were the standard buttplate for the 457's and later production 4513's, were interesting.

My '99 vintage 4513TSW.



My 4513 (top), and an issued one I carried until my retirement (bottom). The issued one came with NS, and had the blackened stainless MIM manual safety and slide stop lever assembly.


I ordered a bunch of the 6rd TSW mags back then, but they were still surfacing now and again, even after the standard 4513TSW replaced the early one. We ordered a crate of 4513/4566TSW mags once, and one of the older 6rd TSW mags was mixed in with them. Then, another time the factory mistakenly sent us a small box of a dozen or so 6rd 4513TSW mags, but actually meant for another agency (which we shipped back).

It's getting hard to find even the standard 7rd 4513TSW mags nowadays, since the guns have been declared obsolete. Some mag parts are available from some S&W vendors, but not the mag bodies.

Hi thanks....curious what department would issue those, was that LA area to the suits and for off duty (ie was like 4506 or similar the standard pistol?).

Did guys often carry that but an 8rd mag as the backup? There was never any issues running the longer mag in them?

What were the duty loads for .45 when you were there? And did it seem to expand/perform decently from the 3 3/4" as well as the 5 or 4.25" that patrol carried I assume? JHP performance in OIS is especially interesting to me. Thank you

Was it 3rd gen .45's that a switch to like 9mm 92's or what came later?

Cheers

 

[ASP DEVEL]

Unless a guy has all of at least one group of 3rd Gens, like all the 9s or all the 45s, all in like-new condition with boxes and papers, don't even waste time trying to sell as a group, especially for a premium. There's probably less than 10 people nationwide with the necessary combination of money and desire to buy and I don't think they'd settle for "used and abused." (Just a wild guess.)

My 4513TSW, 6-round no rail, isn't going anywhere at any price. It came with 1 mag (and my CS45 had one, so there's two I could use with either.) It's my only TSW, so I don't see letting it go. I looked up the thread I started on it when I got it.... surprised that it was almost 5 years ago already.
Heh...4513TSW

I don't really buy super heavy pistols that I would never ever carry....My interest in more in aluminum framed pistol (I think I'd like a 4013 TSW and 6906).

So was thinking more along the lines like say if your 4513 and cs45 were paired together, or something similar like that in another caliber....or perhaps all TSW or CS models across calibers. Thanks

 

[GaryS]

"How valuable" depends on a lot of variables.

I have a pre rail 3913TSW which is one of my daily carry firearms. I also have a pre rail 3953TSW that I've never carried. It's just too perfect for my to use as daily carry piece. It's complete, may not have been shot since it left the factory by anyone but me. And that was only one or two range trips.

I think that the 3953TSW is more valuable than the 3913TSW because of it's condition and the fact that it's complete with everything it left the factory with.

 

[CALREB]

My wife carried one of those for years, as a Detective. For a while when she worked Fugitive Squad she packed a 4506 and 4513 as a back-up and 2 mags for each. The 06 mags did have a slight malfunction rate in the 4513. Like 1 malfunction in 4-5 mags. Didnt worry about it much if things deteriorated that far, better run for it. Gordon Davis rig. I put a hammer with a spur on it, because she wanted it. She has 7 mags for it,and a couple 7 rounders. It just sits in the safe these days. Cant decide about it as neither of us will ever carry it again. Think I will take the sights out and get them relamped and them decide.

 

[Fastbolt]

Hi thanks....curious what department would issue those, was that LA area to the suits and for off duty (ie was like 4506 or similar the standard pistol?).

Did guys often carry that but an 8rd mag as the backup? There was never any issues running the longer mag in them?

What were the duty loads for .45 when you were there? And did it seem to expand/perform decently from the 3 3/4" as well as the 5 or 4.25" that patrol carried I assume? JHP performance in OIS is especially interesting to me. Thank you

Was it 3rd gen .45's that a switch to like 9mm 92's or what came later?

Cheers

It wasn't uncommon for agencies using S&W 3rd gens to issue 4513TSW's (or 4013TSW's and 3913TSW's,comes to that, and we did that, too).

The 7rd mags that came with them were typically issued, but I carried 1 or 2 spare 8rd mags (4566TSW), since the 4566TSW was a standard uniform issued weapon, and we had a lot of spare 8rd mags. Just depended. I never had an feeding issues running either 7rd or 8rd mags in my 4513TSW, and as one of our firearms instructors and armorers I did a fair bit of shooting (free ammo, range and targets, right? ).

The only problems I remember seeing with the 7rd mags was when someone might reassemble a magazine wrong after cleaning (spring upside down and/or backwards ), although there was a time when we found that a small number of factory/new 7rd mags had been received with the springs installed upside down and/or backwards.

I was surprised when someone who reported a feeding stoppage had an incorrectly assembled 7rd mag, and they claimed they'd not disassembled and reassembled their magazine for cleaning. So, I went back to the armory and grabbed some 7rd mags from a bin. Yep, I quickly found a couple that had been shipped with the springs installed wrong. I called the factory and passed along the info. Sigh.

Now, smaller guns may tend to eat springs faster than larger guns. Shorter and lighter slides result in faster cycling, and faster cycling may shorten service life (both recoil and mag springs). Back then in armorer classes they recommended recoil/mag spring replacement intervals for duty weapons at either every 5 years of service (being left loaded) or every 5,000rds fired. That was with standard pressure ammo, too. I tended to replace mine more often.

We used duty ammo acquired off the state contracts, or whatever the LE distributors had on the shelves of their warehouses, which meant standard pressure Winchester USA45JHP (230gr) for a bit, but then Winchester RA45T T-Series and RA45TP +P T-Series (but only because Winchester couldn't keep up with demand for the standard pressure RA45T for a while, and all the distributor had was cases of the RA45TP +P). Stout stuff. We also used Rem 230gr BJHP (Golden Sabre) for a while, and went through many tens of thousands of rounds of it.

The major American ammo makers who make premium lines for LE have realized that shorter barrels became increasingly common over the years, for both plainclothes detectives and off-duty, so the some of the more modern JHP designs benefited from lower velocity windows for expansion.

I stopped worrying about expansion from shorter .45 barrels as we saw decent expansion in both manufacturer testing, and the occasional hosted gel testing (manufacturer trailers with organic gel blocks made for agency hosted gel events), using some of the more modern premium JHP lines.

In my own 4513TSW, I tend to carry either Rem 230gr GS, W-W 230gr RA45T T-Series or Fed 230gr HST. Mostly depends what box/brand is closest at hand when reloading mags. The RA45T does tend to have a bit more felt recoil, though, but it's velocity for both standard and +P versions is on the high end. (Listed 935fps for standard pressure, and 990fps for +P. Compare that to other major maker offerings.)

 

[ASP DEVEL]

My wife carried one of those for years, as a Detective. For a while when she worked Fugitive Squad she packed a 4506 and 4513 as a back-up and 2 mags for each. The 06 mags did have a slight malfunction rate in the 4513. Like 1 malfunction in 4-5 mags. Didnt worry about it much if things deteriorated that far, better run for it. Gordon Davis rig. I put a hammer with a spur on it, because she wanted it. She has 7 mags for it,and a couple 7 rounders. It just sits in the safe these days. Cant decide about it as neither of us will ever carry it again. Think I will take the sights out and get them relamped and them decide.

Guess it served her well. Did she ever rub them together though like Denzel in Training Day?

 

[ASP DEVEL]

It wasn't uncommon for agencies using S&W 3rd gens to issue 4513TSW's (or 4013TSW's and 3913TSW's,comes to that, and we did that, too).

The 7rd mags that came with them were typically issued, but I carried 1 or 2 spare 8rd mags (4566TSW), since the 4566TSW was a standard uniform issued weapon, and we had a lot of spare 8rd mags. Just depended. I never had an feeding issues running either 7rd or 8rd mags in my 4513TSW, and as one of our firearms instructors and armorers I did a fair bit of shooting (free ammo, range and targets, right? ).

The only problems I remember seeing with the 7rd mags was when someone might reassemble a magazine wrong after cleaning (spring upside down and/or backwards ), although there was a time when we found that a small number of factory/new 7rd mags had been received with the springs installed upside down and/or backwards.

I was surprised when someone who reported a feeding stoppage had an incorrectly assembled 7rd mag, and they claimed they'd not disassembled and reassembled their magazine for cleaning. So, I went back to the armory and grabbed some 7rd mags from a bin. Yep, I quickly found a couple that had been shipped with the springs installed wrong. I called the factory and passed along the info. Sigh.

Now, smaller guns may tend to eat springs faster than larger guns. Shorter and lighter slides result in faster cycling, and faster cycling may shorten service life (both recoil and mag springs). Back then in armorer classes they recommended recoil/mag spring replacement intervals for duty weapons at either every 5 years of service (being left loaded) or every 5,000rds fired. That was with standard pressure ammo, too. I tended to replace mine more often.

We used duty ammo acquired off the state contracts, or whatever the LE distributors had on the shelves of their warehouses, which meant standard pressure Winchester USA45JHP (230gr) for a bit, but then Winchester RA45T T-Series and RA45TP +P T-Series (but only because Winchester couldn't keep up with demand for the standard pressure RA45T for a while, and all the distributor had was cases of the RA45TP +P). Stout stuff. We also used Rem 230gr BJHP (Golden Sabre) for a while, and went through many tens of thousands of rounds of it.

The major American ammo makers who make premium lines for LE have realized that shorter barrels became increasingly common over the years, for both plainclothes detectives and off-duty, so the some of the more modern JHP designs benefited from lower velocity windows for expansion.

I stopped worrying about expansion from shorter .45 barrels as we saw decent expansion in both manufacturer testing, and the occasional hosted gel testing (manufacturer trailers with organic gel blocks made for agency hosted gel events), using some of the more modern premium JHP lines.

In my own 4513TSW, I tend to carry either Rem 230gr GS, W-W 230gr RA45T T-Series or Fed 230gr HST. Mostly depends what box/brand is closest at hand when reloading mags. The RA45T does tend to have a bit more felt recoil, though, but it's velocity for both standard and +P versions is on the high end. (Listed 935fps for standard pressure, and 990fps for +P. Compare that to other major maker offerings.)

Thanks for all that info. I feel ok that good jhps like HST or 185 Golden Sabers will probably expand from 3.75".....3.25" is more concerning older HSTs would...newer batches not so sure.

Sure wish I got free ammo...

 

[CALREB]

I agree with Fastbolt we used the Win RA45T+P and Federal HS +P and those rounds were tough on the recoils springs of all the compact 4516/13, CS guns. Hard on the alloy frames also. It was a good day when we dropped the +P stuff, IMO.