617-0 ACCURACY PROBLEMS

[Beachblaster]

I recently bought a 617-0 with the 8-3/8'' barrel. The lock up is perfect as is the trigger which has a smooth 4-1/2 pound pull in SA. Over the last few months I have tried at least 10 different types of .22lr. I am shooting from a rest at 20 yards with a trs-25 red dot. The best 12 shot group I have had shot so far is 2''with none of the holes touching. All of the groups have at least two flyers. The mount is rock solid and I have tried all 5 of my trs-25 dots. The timing is spot on and the rifling looks good and sharp. As a comparison, I also have a 686-0 with the same 8-3/8'' barrel. Using the same mount, red dot, rest and distance I can easily shoot 1''to 1-1/4'' 12 shot groups using .38 special. I am reluctant to have my gunsmith tear into it without some idea of what might be wrong. What am I missing? Completely biased opinions welcome.

 

[armorer951]

The only thing I can think of is that the barrel crown may be damaged. Have you examined the crown closely with a magnifier?

 

[Lon C.]

BeachBlaster...

Have you checked the barrel to insure that it's not canted?

 

[colt_saa]

I presume that you have already had another shooter put a couple of different styles of ammunition to rule out shooter error

I would first look at the crown, that is easy to spot and east to repair

Myself, I wold probably lap the barrel next to insure there are no tight spots down the bore

I would also look at the forcing cone and see how it is cut

 

[Beachblaster]

Hey many thanks for the rapid responses. I had a range master shoot it today while I was there. His groups were worse than mine. The crown looks good to me. The barrel is dead on straight. I checked that stuff during my pre purchase inspection. I had not thought of lapping the barrel, but I have wondered if the forcing cone could be part of the problem. Thank you all, there may be a glimmer of hope here. I really would like to keep this one, it took me a lot of time to find it.

 

[ken158]

Clean the barrel and then clean it again. I bought a model 17 that the owner thought he had shot out the barrel. I got enough lead out of it to make a bullet! Shoots great now.

 

[H Richard]

A assume you have been using standard velocity 40 gr target ammo of a quality make. I have found CCI groups excellent in my 6" 617-6 also Aguila standard velocity 40 gr target. For best groups, I use Fiocchi 320 SM (older stash) and it will group under 3/8" at 50 ft.

 

[jwk]

Obviously clean it well. Check the forcing cone. It should be square to the cylinder. I had a M17 once upon a time that was not square and it wouldn't shoot for beans.

Next, you aren't going to like this one. 22s are some of the most ammo fickle firearms that there are. Some are great and shoot anything. Others only like the really good stuff. Much as I hate to say it, invest in some high dollar stuff. If it won't shoot, you can always run it through your best 22 rifle (let the addiction begin).

I'd also do another check on your optic. I don't know when you moved it off the other revolver. It could have gone bad since. Coincidences do occasionally really happen.

After that, it is either off to the gunsmith, S&W or for sale. I'd at least try calling S&W to see what they say. That is the target version of the 617s and you would think and hope that they would have some pride on one of those.

Finally I love my two 617s. I have a 6" that was one of the early 617s with a 6 shot cylinder and a later 4" with the 10 shot cylinder. The 6" 617 only gets to come out and play when I really want to hit something. It is more accurate than I am by far. The 4" gets lugged around a lot when I'm shooting for fun. While it isn't as convenient to reload as an autoloader when I'm out goofing off and plinking as I go, I really prefer it to any 22 auto I've ever owned.

Good luck in figuring it out.

 

[Toolguy]

If it won't shoot small groups with CCI standard or mini mags, there is something mechanical on the gun that needs attention. All the usual suspects have already been mentioned. Clean the barrel and chambers super good and shoot again. If that doesn't fix it, find a good revo guy. Usually it's a choked barrel, bad crown or bad forcing cone.

 

[nachogrande]

RE. CLEANING

I've found using specific solvents (1 for lead, 1 for copper, or both) depending on what types of bullets were used to be of help. Shooters choice makes both.

 

[CALREB]

I would check to see if its shaving lead , most 22s spit a little, just the lube off the bullets , but just because the timing is on it doesn't mean alignment is perfect. If you have a range rod or access to one (must be for a k22) regular 22 is too big. this can check the barrel where its mounted into the frame, not familiar with 22s but in 38s overtightening the barrel can stress the barrel and hurt accuracy. Do they even put forcing cones on 22 cal revolvers , if so its very subtle on some of my newer models. good luck

 

[AzShooter]

Using a 12 minute dot I was able to shoot this group at 25 yards with CCI - SV. You should be able to do the same thing.

I did have the forcing cone cut and that tightened up my groups. Other than that have a strong grip, you may want to check if your grips are loose.

Mine shoots equally well with CCI Blazer so, you don't have to spend a lot of money on ammo to get it to shoot well.

 

[one eye joe]

I HAVE AN UNMOLESTED, NO DASH M617, WITH AN 8 3/8" BARREL. IT CARRIES A 30MM, ULTRA DOT OPTIC, IN A NO-DRILL, B-SQUARE MOUNT. I SHOOT CCI MINI-MAG 40GR SOLIDS. THEY ARE COPPER COATED, AND SHOOT VERY CLEAN.....

THE GUN SHOOTS LIKE A RIFLE, AND GROUPS VERY WELL. OUT TO 100 YARDS.......

I AM SURPRISED TO READ OF YOUR PROBLEMS. SOMETHING IS MECHANICALLY AMISS. COULD IT BE THAT YOUR SCOPE MOUNT IS MOVING ? ? ?

 

[AveragEd]

It very well could be that optic. Have you tried shooting it with its iron sights?

I have the Model 22A-1 Talo Edition pictured below that I wanted my wife to shoot. She struggles with open sights but does well with a scoped rifle so I bought one of those optics (I forget the brand) for it and took it to my club to sight it in at 25 yards.

My groups were horrible compared to how the gun shot for me with its factory adjustable sights so I removed the optic and shot it some more. Presto - accuracy restored. The optic now is somewhere in one of my gun parts boxes.

I have two no-dash 617s, a six-inch and a four-inch. Both shoot very well with CCI Mini-Mags and Federal Target ammo - very often one-hole 25-yard groups from a rest depending upon how well the shooter does his part. I did replace the four-inch gun's factory rear sight with a Millett and its standard trigger and hammer with target versions.

Ed

 

[Wee Hooker]

Very odd for an older 617 to shoot that poorly. Especily a 8". My 617 no dash certainly shoots better.
Given you've inspected for obvious things on the gun already here is how I would approach :

1) Clean the barrel and each cyl with a good Lead remover. Use a brass brush, not a bore snake. Then clean it again. Lead can be hard to see but it can hide out and rob accuracy.

2) Make the cylinder and load only 5 rounds in the same holes each time. That will reduce a variable. Watch to see if there is any consistancy in which shot is a flyer

3) Lose the optic. A 3min dot is covering 3/4" of target at 25 yds. That's 3/4" of starting error. Try iron sights then a decent pistol scope and see what happens.

4) Make sure your rest is shock absorbant (like a sand bag). Better yet, see if yur club has a ransome rest you could use/rent.

5) Settle on and shoot only a limited brand or two of quality ammo. CC Minimags and/or some brand of match/target ammo. Another variable reduced.

6) If all else fails, I might consider a competent revolver gunsmth to see what can be found.
Keep us posted.

 

[Beachblaster]

I very much appreciate all the advice. Iron sights are out for me, my eyesight requires at least a red dot. In my defense, at 25 yards I can usually shoot 10 shot groups at around 1/2'' with my TC Contender. Same Trs-25 dot and CCI SV .22lr ammo. I use sand bags as a rest. A lot of you have mentioned a real thorough cleaning as a place to start, and that's what I will do. Updates to follow.

 

[Lou_NC]

Who mounted the optic system? Was it used on any other gun before this one? Are you sure the mounts are tight? Sorry for all the questions but on the internet we don't know if someone is all thumbs or a mechanical engineer until we ask these kind of questions!

There's definitely nothing wrong with cleaning the barrel, in fact I really recommend that in addition to scrubbing with a bronze brush, you also use some JB bore compound to ensure but it's really really clean.

Good luck,
Lou

 

[ontargetagain]

Can try eliminating variables. Pick one hole to load, shoot, extract and load same hole again, shoot, repeat and see grouping. This may eliminate a restricted or two chamber that is squeezing the bullet? May eliminate a timing issue variation.
Any mess around the forcing cone?
Karl

 

[Beachblaster]

My gunsmith, who has been at it for 30 years, mounted the rail and it is rock solid. I mount and dismount optics when the mood strikes. I have a handful of vintage Smith revolvers that all shoot well and I have kept them. This one seems perfect mechanically and looks pristine. A real puzzler. No worries, I will clean it and check that out before moving on to timing, forcing cone, and cylinder problems. Wanted to do as much on my end before handing it off to my gunsmith. Thank you all.

 

[Groo01]

Groo here
1# Clean, a little BJ's Bore cleaner will not hurt.
2# Pick a good load, Try the WOLF 22 Match Target[$5 to#6 box]
3# Season bore, Shoot 10 to 20 shots before grouping AND DON'T CHANGE AMMO!!!!!!!!!!!!
The Bore needs coated [fouling] with what ever lube is on the bullet.
Changing the load or cleaning means starting over...
PS. 22 target shooters have been doing this a longggggggggg time.
PPS. Few 22's need cleaning at all.
I talked to a target barrel maker who said " Don't clean, but if you must
only after 5000 rds and only with a dry patch"
Modern 22's [post "cleanbore"] not only don't rust the bore, the primer
coats the bore and helps keep rust away......[ also modern centerfire ammo]
We can clean too much.

 

[AveragEd]

You mentioned your diminished ability to see your gun's iron sights. From that, I'm assuming that you are older like me - 72 last Thursday. I also could not focus on my gun's sights without using readers and then the target's black bull is a blurry football standing on end. BUT with the right corrective lenses, there is hope.

I am a contributing editor for an outdoor magazine and mentioned this in a column. Drs. Harold and Wayne Morgan of Morgan Sports Optical in Olean, New York emailed me to say they could make lenses for me that would enable my master eye to see both the sights and target with clarity. They did just that by me telling them if I was right- or left-handed, my corrective lens prescriptions and the distance at which I usually shot via email and the glasses arrived in a week!

Visit their website at Shooting Glasses for Sportsman | Morgan Optical and give them a call. There is no sense compromising your shooting enjoyment with gadgets and gizmos that really don't work when there is a better way that addresses the actual problem.

Ed

 

[jaymoore]

When my 8 3/8" no dash was new it didn't shoot worth beans. A few thousand rounds later it finally settled down and shoots ammo that it likes quite well, indeed! Well enough to be a favorite squirrel gun and occasional small bore metallic silhouette entry. (I prefer to leave the sights alone, set up for hunting, hence the hesitation to shoot competitively out to 100yds.)

At any rate, I reckon it just lapped itself in over those few few thousand rounds. Fortunately, that was in the 1990s when ammo was cheap and plentiful. T'weren't nuttin' to burn through 500 rounds in short order!

 

[Beachblaster]

Exciting update. Got out the Hoppe's and a bore brush and had at it. I made 30 passes with the brush. After each ten passes, I ran a bore mop soaked with more Hoppe's through and then dry patches until they were clean. Hit the range two days ago. Same rest, distance, red dot, and targets. Out of five 12-shot groups two were 1-1/4 ''. The rest were from 1-1/2 to 1-3/4. You guys may be on to something. I checked the bc gap and it is .007''. The gauge goes side to side smoothly. The ammo was Federal gold match target. As a comparison, I shot five 10-shot groups all under 3/4'' with my Buckmark Lite. Same ammo, etc., etc. Still some room for improvement, but I'm real happy with the progress so far. Many thanks to all of you for your suggestions. I am more confident that the 617 is mechanically sound and it is up to me to experiment to see if I can get consistent 1'' groups.

 

[jaymoore]

I think you will get there. Eventually, it should go a long time between cleanings without losing accuracy. You will also have to find the ammo it likes best.

That said, there's been good research done that shows pretty conclusively auto loaders and single shot pistols will have the edge, accuracy wise, from a rest.

Here's one excellent article to reference:
Accuracy In 22-Caliber Target Pistols by Kenneth L. Walters (circa 1981)

One thing that Mr. Walters didn't explore was the effect of chamber size. Given the trend toward tighter chambers in many of the more accurate .22s, I think the newer S&W revolvers took advantage of the revolver's lack of need to cycle like a semi-auto to gain back some accuracy lost by the lack of a "fixed in place" back end. The full underlug barrels don't hurt, either. It's certainly noticable in bench testing my various .22 K frames which go all the way back to pre-WWII. However, many folk don't like that heavy front end when shooting standing, particularly the "one hand" traditional bullseye target shooters.

BTW, You may want to try Wolf Match Extra, or some of the Eley products. Last good lot of Federal match ammo, Ultra or otherwise, I bought is almost 20 years old, now. SK is another likely suspect, but the Eley can be had in more variations, including some good hunting loads. Tenex IS rather expensive, but many of the Club lots are really good! (In fact, Eley Club ammo is what I use for most of my smallbore IHMSA, even 1/5th scale entries. Good enough to win, when the nut behind the trigger does his part...)

 

[Beachblaster]

Been a minute since my last update. I have been busy with Contender projects. I have tried a number of .22lr brands including Wolf, Eley, Lapua, etc. None group any better than my go to CCI standard velocity. I was at the range last week and shot, from a rest, 5 ten shot groups @ 20 yards that averaged 2''. I surrender. My gunsmith, who has grown weary of my questions, has agreed to give it a thorough tear down once his hectic schedule calms down. He still feels there is nothing wrong with this firearm, but agrees that I should be able to get groups equal to what I can do with my two Buckmarks. Normally I wouldn't bother with all of this, but I really like this 617, so away we go. Thank you all for your help. Updates to follow.

 

[AzShooter]

CCI SV does very well out of my 617. Don't neglect checking out Blazers. They run a close second.

You should be able to get under 2 inches at 20 yards with your 617. Federal HV shoot even better but costs a lot more.

 

[JDinAZ]

Check the cylinder throats. May be tight or inconsistent. Tight throats will create accuracy problems. Swages bullet too much going thru throat. Makes bullet undersized will not engage well enough to rifling thus doesn't spin and stabilize the way it should.

The SAMMI site has current specs you can download for cartridge and chamber. I'd assume SW chambers it in 22lr sporting but without pin gaging the cylinder myself I won't commit to that being the correct chambering.

 

[Eddietruett]

For what it’s worth, I ran into a similar problem with my 8 3/8 mod 17. Tried 10-12 different types of ammo from cheap to high end. Best group was about 2” at 25 yards and that was with Remington Golden out of a bucket. Tried all of the things you gues have suggested to the OP and nothing got better. Was at the range one day and a guy gave me some Federal Match HP to try. Bingo! All of a sudden I’m getting 1” groups (shooting with a red dot tube off a rest). Disappointed it doesn’t shoot a variety of ammo well, but at least I found one that’s magical. BTW, the Federal shoots great in my other 22’s so all is well, it just took some time and a little luck finding right bullet

 

[Toolguy]

Recut the crown and forcing cone and take those out of the equation. That's the first thing I do when I get a new or new to me revolver. You can't tell just by looking unless they are really bad.

 

[Super Dave]

It's worth the effort to get the gun to shoot well but I've had some S&W revolvers that just refuse to shoot good groups. I've sent them to really good gunsmiths to check out and everything was in spec. When that happens I usually give up and sell the gun. It's frustrating but I find there are a lot more accurate guns compared the few lemons I've had.

Best of luck to you,
Dave