617-0 ACCURACY PROBLEMS

[AveragEd]

You mentioned your diminished ability to see your gun's iron sights. From that, I'm assuming that you are older like me - 72 last Thursday. I also could not focus on my gun's sights without using readers and then the target's black bull is a blurry football standing on end. BUT with the right corrective lenses, there is hope.

I am a contributing editor for an outdoor magazine and mentioned this in a column. Drs. Harold and Wayne Morgan of Morgan Sports Optical in Olean, New York emailed me to say they could make lenses for me that would enable my master eye to see both the sights and target with clarity. They did just that by me telling them if I was right- or left-handed, my corrective lens prescriptions and the distance at which I usually shot via email and the glasses arrived in a week!

Visit their website at Shooting Glasses for Sportsman | Morgan Optical and give them a call. There is no sense compromising your shooting enjoyment with gadgets and gizmos that really don't work when there is a better way that addresses the actual problem.

Ed

 

[jaymoore]

When my 8 3/8" no dash was new it didn't shoot worth beans. A few thousand rounds later it finally settled down and shoots ammo that it likes quite well, indeed! Well enough to be a favorite squirrel gun and occasional small bore metallic silhouette entry. (I prefer to leave the sights alone, set up for hunting, hence the hesitation to shoot competitively out to 100yds.)

At any rate, I reckon it just lapped itself in over those few few thousand rounds. Fortunately, that was in the 1990s when ammo was cheap and plentiful. T'weren't nuttin' to burn through 500 rounds in short order!

 

[Beachblaster]

Exciting update. Got out the Hoppe's and a bore brush and had at it. I made 30 passes with the brush. After each ten passes, I ran a bore mop soaked with more Hoppe's through and then dry patches until they were clean. Hit the range two days ago. Same rest, distance, red dot, and targets. Out of five 12-shot groups two were 1-1/4 ''. The rest were from 1-1/2 to 1-3/4. You guys may be on to something. I checked the bc gap and it is .007''. The gauge goes side to side smoothly. The ammo was Federal gold match target. As a comparison, I shot five 10-shot groups all under 3/4'' with my Buckmark Lite. Same ammo, etc., etc. Still some room for improvement, but I'm real happy with the progress so far. Many thanks to all of you for your suggestions. I am more confident that the 617 is mechanically sound and it is up to me to experiment to see if I can get consistent 1'' groups.

 

[jaymoore]

I think you will get there. Eventually, it should go a long time between cleanings without losing accuracy. You will also have to find the ammo it likes best.

That said, there's been good research done that shows pretty conclusively auto loaders and single shot pistols will have the edge, accuracy wise, from a rest.

Here's one excellent article to reference:
Accuracy In 22-Caliber Target Pistols by Kenneth L. Walters (circa 1981)

One thing that Mr. Walters didn't explore was the effect of chamber size. Given the trend toward tighter chambers in many of the more accurate .22s, I think the newer S&W revolvers took advantage of the revolver's lack of need to cycle like a semi-auto to gain back some accuracy lost by the lack of a "fixed in place" back end. The full underlug barrels don't hurt, either. It's certainly noticable in bench testing my various .22 K frames which go all the way back to pre-WWII. However, many folk don't like that heavy front end when shooting standing, particularly the "one hand" traditional bullseye target shooters.

BTW, You may want to try Wolf Match Extra, or some of the Eley products. Last good lot of Federal match ammo, Ultra or otherwise, I bought is almost 20 years old, now. SK is another likely suspect, but the Eley can be had in more variations, including some good hunting loads. Tenex IS rather expensive, but many of the Club lots are really good! (In fact, Eley Club ammo is what I use for most of my smallbore IHMSA, even 1/5th scale entries. Good enough to win, when the nut behind the trigger does his part...)

 

[Beachblaster]

Been a minute since my last update. I have been busy with Contender projects. I have tried a number of .22lr brands including Wolf, Eley, Lapua, etc. None group any better than my go to CCI standard velocity. I was at the range last week and shot, from a rest, 5 ten shot groups @ 20 yards that averaged 2''. I surrender. My gunsmith, who has grown weary of my questions, has agreed to give it a thorough tear down once his hectic schedule calms down. He still feels there is nothing wrong with this firearm, but agrees that I should be able to get groups equal to what I can do with my two Buckmarks. Normally I wouldn't bother with all of this, but I really like this 617, so away we go. Thank you all for your help. Updates to follow.

 

[AzShooter]

CCI SV does very well out of my 617. Don't neglect checking out Blazers. They run a close second.

You should be able to get under 2 inches at 20 yards with your 617. Federal HV shoot even better but costs a lot more.

 

[JDinAZ]

Check the cylinder throats. May be tight or inconsistent. Tight throats will create accuracy problems. Swages bullet too much going thru throat. Makes bullet undersized will not engage well enough to rifling thus doesn't spin and stabilize the way it should.

The SAMMI site has current specs you can download for cartridge and chamber. I'd assume SW chambers it in 22lr sporting but without pin gaging the cylinder myself I won't commit to that being the correct chambering.

 

[Eddietruett]

For what it's worth, I ran into a similar problem with my 8 3/8 mod 17. Tried 10-12 different types of ammo from cheap to high end. Best group was about 2" at 25 yards and that was with Remington Golden out of a bucket. Tried all of the things you gues have suggested to the OP and nothing got better. Was at the range one day and a guy gave me some Federal Match HP to try. Bingo! All of a sudden I'm getting 1" groups (shooting with a red dot tube off a rest). Disappointed it doesn't shoot a variety of ammo well, but at least I found one that's magical. BTW, the Federal shoots great in my other 22's so all is well, it just took some time and a little luck finding right bullet

 

[Protocall_Design]

Recut the crown and forcing cone and take those out of the equation. That's the first thing I do when I get a new or new to me revolver. You can't tell just by looking unless they are really bad.

 

[Super Dave]

It's worth the effort to get the gun to shoot well but I've had some S&W revolvers that just refuse to shoot good groups. I've sent them to really good gunsmiths to check out and everything was in spec. When that happens I usually give up and sell the gun. It's frustrating but I find there are a lot more accurate guns compared the few lemons I've had.

Best of luck to you,
Dave

 

[AzShooter]

Beachblaster... next thing to do is to call S&W and tell them what you are going through. You can probably send it back on their dime and have them check it out. It's obviously out of specks and they will make it better. Just takes them a while to get to the gun.

It's a lot cheaper to send it back to the Mothership for examination than to fight the problem yourself. I do my own gunsmithing as a hobby and had to do a lot of work to get my 617 to shoot the way it does. Forcing cone cut, Crown cut, BC is set at .003, all cylinders have been reamed so that cases don't stick in the cylinder after 100s of rounds.

All of this could have been done from Smith but I have the tools and enjoy a challenge.

Good luck and keep us abreast of how well your gun is shooting now. I only shoot mine double action. Try single action, a good rest and a small dot.

 

[SuperMan]

Many years ago a friend bought a 617 6" and was so bad that when sent back to S&W on their dime, they sent him a brand new gun that they must have put through the PC before they sent it to him...

As stated above you may want to consider marking each one of the chambers and fire a 5-10 shot group to see a) how big the group is and b) exactly where the shots are going compared to each chamber.

You may also want to drop an alignment rod down the barrel to make sure all the chambers are properly lining up with the bore. All it takes is one out of line to mess things up. Timing means nothing if the cylinder throat isn't perfectly aligned with the forcing cone...

Good luck in your quest...

Bob

 

[Beachblaster]

So......
Got a call from my gunsmith this morning, ''I need you to come and see me about your 617.'' Great. Everything checked out good inside and while he was in there he did a light smoothing and lowered my trigger pull to a very nice 3#. When he went to bore sight it however he could not get his smallest rimfire model to go into the barrel. That one mics at .215''. I put the micrometer on it myself. Damn. I still intend to shoot it with the action job and see how it goes. I have put at least 500 rounds through it since I bought it with no drama. I will also put a call into S&W just for the heck of it. My smith has seen tight bores now and then but this struck him as something special. Any thoughts on this?

 

[Big Cholla]

I have considerable experience with M 617s. My suggestion is:

Clean down to bare metal.
Check barrel/frame alignment with a good range rod.
Re cut the leade to 11 deg. with a cutter from Brownell's.
Swap out that optic with a comparable optic.
Shoot 6 ea five shot groups from individual chambers.
Don't hurry your shooting and quit when you get tired.

BTW: Do all the above one change at a time.

And I just thought of another; have your vision checked. When I was pistolsmithing I had a known good shooter bring a handgun to me as "It had gone bad for some reason or another". After a complete mechanical check, I fired the gun and it shot as well as it ever did. It turned out that his vision had changed.

 

[Big Cholla]

Just saw your post right before mine. IMHO, that barrel should be pulled and checked from the chamber forward for bore diameter. It could be that the barrel swages down at the muzzle. That would sure explain the big groups. In fact I have a M 617 with the same small bore at the muzzle. I haven't worried about it because it sure shoots 22 WMR in small groups.

 

[Beachblaster]

Just saw your post right before mine. IMHO, that barrel should be pulled and checked from the chamber forward for bore diameter. It could be that the barrel swages down at the muzzle. That would sure explain the big groups. In fact I have a M 617 with the same small bore at the muzzle. I haven't worried about it because it sure shoots 22 WMR in small groups.

My smith agrees with you. He does not want to go any further until I have contacted S&W. I still need to hit the range next week to see if the action work helped. My vision is checked yearly and I do wear corrective lenses. In my defense, shooting my Ruger Single Ten with the exact same set up as my 617 I get consistent 10 shot groups that average 1''. I like my 617, so I won't mind spending a little time and money to make it better. Thanks for your response.





t

 

[SuperMan]

"Squeeze-bore" is usually a good thing...but make sure that the forcing cone has that 11* taper because if the barrel is .215 at the forcing cone then it will be distorting the bullets as they enter the rifling...

Bob

 

[Qc Pistolero]

12 shot groups and 2 fliers.One chamber is out of click.
From all your tests,use the ammo that grouped best without taking into account the 2 fliers.Then,mark the rear end of 1 chamber and shoot a 12 shot group but using only that chamber which you'll identify as no 1.Repeat with next chamber from no 1 and so on.This way you will ID the culprit.
From there,check whatever might cause the flier;larger or(more probably)smaller chamber mouth,locking notch in the cylinder penned or simply too wide,or whatever that is not the same as its sister chambers.
I don't say that's the problem but that is where I'd start looking for a solution.These 617 are very accurate.I hope you find and that the cure is not expensive.
Please keep us posted for the cure as it may help some others.

 

[Beachblaster]

I feel I have beaten this deceased equine enough. Here's what's up. Got my 617 back from my gunsmith and gave it yet another thorough scrubbing, and then to the range. No particular cylinder showed any accuracy problems. I shot ten 12-shot groups and the groups were tighter, a bit over 1'' on average. I attribute this to the new 3# pull. All of my Ruger SA revolvers have been massaged to 2# or less and I guess that is what I am used to. This level of accuracy is good enough for now. I will continue to experiment with different ammo brands and see what happens. To all of those that responded to my issue, I thank you. Your help was much appreciated.

 

[M29since14]

I too wouldn't be surprised if the improved trigger turned the trick for you.

Without getting into the details of all of the many dimensions that could affect accuracy, it's impossible to say much conclusively but I agree with other posters who have suggested checking individual exit bores with pin gages and, of course, chamber alignment with a proper range rod. If your barrel really is considerably undersize you might have to have a range rod custom ground for it. Anyway, happy to know the trigger work has helped.

I'm curious to know, what ammo ended up working the best in your revolver?