617-6 misfiring

[m657]

just traded for a 617-6 10 shot showing very little use; seller advised he only put 2 cylinders full through it and didn't know amount of prior use.

No obvious wear/binding/defects etc. Looks in 'primo' condition. SA gauge measures at 4.5~5#; DA breaks smoothly enough but above scale of gauge.

happy with trade, took out for shake-down range session; put nearly 200 rounds down range.

found a few 'performance issues':
1) at 20' POI was 4" to the right and 3" high;
suitable adjustments gave good grouping centering around POA; resolved;

2) What seemed at first to be a 'single failure to fire' per cylinder full, developed into a 3 or 4 'failure to fire'.

Checked strain screw; yes, it's tight.

continued firing various ammo, continued with between 1-4 FTF. Started marking errant cylinders with black dot. When FTF occurred, would move that round to a fresh cylinder; round would fire.

Eventually had 4 cylinders with repeating FTF dots.

Cylinder seems to be not an issue; no binding/wobble or unusual movement. No extraction issues.

PLAN
My local smith is closed today, early visit in the AM
planned. The firing pin indent in some cases seemed a little light but some of the ones that fired also seemed a little light.

QUESTIONS
1) does this sound like 'warranty' work? If so, what might it be?

2) Considering I prefer this type of revolver trigger to be around 2# SA & 5ish DA, is this just opportunity to ship for factory "master tune" at $165 to add to whatever their repair charges might be?

Comments/suggestions/observations solicited. I intend to remedy this and use in Speed Challenge, etc.

 

[wantmoresmiths]

A couple of thoughts come to mind.

Was all shooting done with the same brick / box of ammunition? All the same brand? Could be an ammunition problem. I would try CCI standard velocity and mini mags. If the problem continues with those brands I would rule out the ammo.

One of the previous owners may have tried some at home gunsmithing. Hard to tell until you get it open.

You could send the gun to S&W as a warranty repair and then pay for the trigger upgrade, however I would contact Apex Tactical. Have them check the gun to diagnose the problem, then I would have them do the action. The S&W custom shop seems to be a hit or miss proposition. I have read posts from people who were disappointed with the custom shop. I have never read or heard a bad thing about Apex.

Apex trigger job for 617? - Revolver Forum - Brian Enos's Forums... Maku mozo!

 

[cjw3]

I can't address the warranty question, but to avoid that hassle I would look for the simplest solution(s) first.

I don't know how much experience you have with revolvers in general and/or .22's in particular but if I had one doing that I would check to be sure the extractor was fully seating. Unburned powder will get under it and can keep it (and the cartridges) from seating securely.

Also, it is helpful to give each a cartridge a firm push with your finger when seating. Again, the cartridge rim must be in good contact with the recess for it in the cylinder so that the firing pin gets a good hit.

As you describe it getting worse as more shots are fired, I would be inclined to think it might be a fouling problem. You might also check the hammer recess in the frame and be sure the firing pin moves freely.

I have had misfires when one or both of the above issues above have been present in my K-22, 17-8 and 63 so now routinely take a few seconds now and then to clean under the extractor and give each cartridge a positive push to be sure it is seated. No problems when I do so, DA or SA.

If you are using any of the Remington bulk packed .22 LR, misfires will be common even if everything else is right. I gave up on that stuff years ago for any purpose. I have been consistently pleased with CCI and Federal.

Hope you are able to get it sorted out. There's nothing like a K-frame .22, IMO. Good luck.

 

[tomcatt51]

Clean the chambers. Use a drill motor with a short piece of cleaning rod in the chuck and a .243 rifle bore brush and your favorite solvent. Clean under the "star" too.

See if that fixes it. The chamers are usually undersize and ANY crud prevents the case rims from fully seating in their recesses and you use firing pin energy pushing the case in the last little bit.

Ream the chambers. If you want to shoot a steel challenge match without beating on the extractor rod to get the empties out this IS necessary. Ignition reliability will improve also. I'm not saying to "hog out the chambers", just use a saami spec reamer. I've reamed the chambers in a bunch of 17/617 cylinders.

 

[m657]

thanks for the tips gents.....

I was using 5 different brands with same results;
nothing under extractor.

My m17-4 in tens of thousands of rounds of the same batch of ammo has had ~0~ issues related to debris.

Other than being 8 3/8" long slow handling 6 shot, I would use IT as the trigger/action was touched up decades ago and remain 'perfect'.

Ah, what would we do with our time if not to ferret out such reluctantly revealed cause for our shooting distress!

Thanks again.

 

[Charlie Foxtrott]

All of this is really good advice.

I can't address the warranty question, but to avoid that hassle I would look for the simplest solution(s) first.

I don't know how much experience you have with revolvers in general and/or .22's in particular but if I had one doing that I would check to be sure the extractor was fully seating. Unburned powder will get under it and can keep it (and the cartridges) from seating securely.

Also, it is helpful to give each a cartridge a firm push with your finger when seating. Again, the cartridge rim must be in good contact with the recess for it in the cylinder so that the firing pin gets a good hit.

As you describe it getting worse as more shots are fired, I would be inclined to think it might be a fouling problem. You might also check the hammer recess in the frame and be sure the firing pin moves freely.

I have had misfires when one or both of the above issues above have been present in my K-22, 17-8 and 63 so now routinely take a few seconds now and then to clean under the extractor and give each cartridge a positive push to be sure it is seated. No problems when I do so, DA or SA.

If you are using any of the Remington bulk packed .22 LR, misfires will be common even if everything else is right. I gave up on that stuff years ago for any purpose. I have been consistently pleased with CCI and Federal.

Hope you are able to get it sorted out. There's nothing like a K-frame .22, IMO. Good luck.

Before you do anything else get some good quality ammo and clean the heck out of the gun. Try it again.

 

[tomcatt51]

My m17-4 in tens of thousands of rounds...

Your 17-4 has the heavier forged hammer and "old style" firing pin. They (for rimfire) do work better.

 

[v-13]

m657, I too own a 617-6 and bought it brand new with the same problems. Occasional misfires and the trigger/hammer binding up. I tried several brands of ammo and even tried the expensive CCI brands that come in 50 round containers. Anyway, I sent it in to S&W as it was under warranty and they replaced the firing pin, strain screws, repaired the frame and repaired the lock. Now it works like a champ. Two weeks turnaround time. I was really impressed with their customer service. Even if it costs you some money, I would have the factory do the repair to make it run right. Good luck!

 

[tomcatt51]

it was under warranty and they replaced the firing pin...

There were quite a few guns sent out with "short" firing pins. The "good ones" (that they have gone back to) are .485"+ long. That's the next thing to check.

 

[SPR1]

When reaming the chambers should you remove the extractor or can you just leave it in?

 

[Joewisc]

I have a 617-6, put several hundred rounds down the pipe with no FTF's or problems regardless of ammo. I'd give it a thorough cleaning and see if that does the trick. Otherwise, I'd send it to Smith for repair.

 

[tomcatt51]

When reaming the chambers should you remove the extractor or can you just leave it in?

I usually leave the extractor in place but you can do it either way. The reamer should leave a nice finish, I don't do any polishing after reaming the 22s. Make sure you use the thick brown nasty cutting oil not WD40 or similar.

Be carefull not to go too deep, cutting the rim recesses deeper. At most you want to just "touch" the recess face, don't cut that surface.

Clean the chips regularly. At least once per chamber. You'll be surprised how many chips you make.

 

[m657]

UPDATE:

My local smith replaced all the springs with stock factory style. Now have 100% ignition and a Swartzenegger-style DA action....my gauge will not go high enough to measure it. And the strain screw had been shortened so much, it was incapable of putting ANY tension on the stock hammer spring. Replaced the SS. Been reading various remedies for DA. Still looking for the 'right' tips.

The SA I got to a smooth 3# trigger after polishing the return block.

Shot a match, still need some action work.

Installed LPA fiber optic sights after the match. At least I'll be able to see 'em now....

 

[SPR1]

I usually leave the extractor in place but you can do it either way. The reamer should leave a nice finish, I don't do any polishing after reaming the 22s. Make sure you use the thick brown nasty cutting oil not WD40 or similar.

Be carefull not to go too deep, cutting the rim recesses deeper. At most you want to just "touch" the recess face, don't cut that surface.

Clean the chips regularly. At least once per chamber. You'll be surprised how many chips you make.

When I started, I had a couple chambers that required pushing rounds in, even when clean.

The gun is much more shootable, in that I don't even need to clean under the extractor as often. There was no difference in accuracy and the rounds literally fall all the way in when clean. A light touch on a couple was required after a 100 rounds, but there is a lot of variability in the bulk pack stuff.

I do all of my shooting double action, other than sighting in, so this improvement is great, because a slight drag DA completely screws you up.

Thanks for the advice.