617 After Reaming Cylinder

[AzShooter]

I was having problems with sticky chambers in my 617 with a variety of ammo so I reamed the chambers last week to see if it would correct it. It sure did.

Today I fired over 300 rounds of CCI Mini Mags, Federal Golden Bullets and Federal AutoMatch and all empties just dropped freely. Big improvement

I loaded up with my DS-10 loaders and SpeedBeez and Pelican loading blocks. Makes shooting much faster and more fun.

 

[Shooter-2]

I need to do this as well to my 17. What kind of reamer do i need? and where can i buy one? Thanks

 

[AzShooter]

Get a Clymer .22 Finishing Reamer from Brownells.

 

[steelslaver]

Or you can rent one from 4DReamer. Be sure to get a cylinder reamer as the pilot of a regular reamer fits the lands of the rifling and a cylinder reamer fits the throats of cylinder chambers

 

[cmansguns]

Go slow and easy by hand...use plenty Tap Magic

I too was having major difficulty not only extremely sticky extraction, but also even loading fresh rounds by hand. Most all had to be "pushed" into chambers by thumb pressure, making the whole range or plinking experience discouraging for me, wife, kids (grown and grandkids).

It got so that when we went out, literally everyone chose either the 1947 or 1948 K22 Masterpiece guns which never experienced this issue with any brand ammo, whether high velocity, standard velocity or hollow points, etc.

Two pics below are of my 1972 Model 17-3, and my 1975 Model 34-1 BEFORE reaming.

I read all the posts and figured what have I got to lose..seeing as the guns are just sitting in the safe and not desired by any of my shooters.

I bought the Manson 22LR cylinder finishing reamer shown below. It was about $65.00 plus tax & shipping if I recall. I think it was from Midway, but might have been Brownells. Anyway, the reamer is very sharp (of course being brand new) and finding a SMALL container of "cutting fluid" (you want the stinky stuff..not sewing machine oil) proved impossible on line, so I just visited my old employers machine shop and they gave me a little Tap-Magic in a little squirt bottle.

Do NOT remover the extractor star, go slow and easy by hand, all in one direction and have a drip pan under your vise. The reaming is done when you notice (or feel) the countersunk rim recess just get "kissed" by the reamer. I did NOT get any chips that you would recognize as machining chips, rather it was more like angel hair/dust and there wasn't even a tremendous amount of that, but WOW....sure made the difference on both guns. They load as easy as the K22's, they extract just as easy, and absolutely no effect on accuracy to my knowledge.

Bottom line? It is only a few thousandths (or less) of metal being removed, but all the difference in the world. Happy guns, Happy shooters and these two fine S & W's are back in action.

Good luck with yours and just gaining the confidence that yes..you can do it yourself without an aircraft quality machine shop in your shop/garage/den or wherever the wife will let you work on guns. BTW: this reming is actually LESS of a mess than standard after shooting normal cleaning...in both mess and smell.

 

[gwpercle]

Loadin fast is nice ... if that's what you want .

I would prefer accuracy over fast loading .

I don't see one target ... how does it shoot ?
Gary

 

[Protocall_Design]

The accuracy doesn't change by making the chamber to proper specs. What it does is make the gun more useable. It's not about fast reloads.

 

[steelslaver]

I tell you what I will take out a pre model 4" & 6" K22 that was never reamed and an 18-4 and a 17-3 that were reamed. I will fire them all from my home built Ransom rest and we will see. I am betting that they all shoot very similar groups. I have never reamed the 2 pre models simply because I seldom shoot them and they mostly just look nice taking up space in my safe. I have reamed my kit gun, my 18-4, 17-3 and a 6" 4 screw.

 

[BC38]

You need to ream any 22LR revolver then send a PM to Jebus35745.

There is a reamer with handle and cutting oil "kit" that is/has been circulating among members of this board for a couple of years. I just sent it off to Jebus35745 a couple of months ago after using it on a couple of my own revolvers.

If he hasn't passed it along yet then he should be able to send it to you. If he has sent it on already, he can tell you who he sent it to, and you can then reach out to them.

It's a karma thing - keep it "going around...."

 

[Baltimoreed11754]

All my chambers feed and extract fine. Very smooth. Probably shot 300 rds so far. Love the Speedbeez loader. My problem is that it's spitting, I need to work on my forcing cone.

 

[steelslaver]

All my chambers feed and extract fine. Very smooth. Probably shot 300 rds so far. Love the Speedbeez loader. My problem is that it's spitting, I need to work on my forcing cone.

Before you work on the forcing cone. Have you checked to make sure it is carrying up correctly. With snap caps or fired brass in chambers, lay a finger on cylinder and slowly cock it. Does cylinder stop click in notch and lock cylinder before hammer locks back. In DA does the cylinder lock up before hammer falls?

How wide is the barrel to cylinder gap and how much endshake does it have?

If you do end up working on the forcing cone go easy with correct tools. Once that metal is gone it is gone and only way to fix is to set the barrel back a thread.

 

[H Richard]

When you cut, go slow, oil frequently, clean reamer often. With the cylinder with ejector star in place, in a padded vice put a wad of shop towel or paper towel under it to absorb all the oil. Never turn the reamer backwards, only forward and keep turning slowly while removing it from chamber.

 

[Baltimoreed11754]

Thanks for the input, not trying to steal your post op. Ok, just checked my 617 and the cylinder has no endshake, .005 thousands cyl gap and is properly locking before the hammer is cocked. There is a little bit of cyl rotational play with the trigger pulled to the rear. Believe it to be just slop between the cyl stop and notches.

 

[steelslaver]

OK, I went out to the range and set up my homemade Ransom rest. I took 6 S&W 22 revolvers. I used Winchester 35 gr hp ammo in all of them from the same box of 325. I would mount a gun then fire 6 rounds at a dot making sure gun was seated, they were all fouled similarly etc. Then I would fire a cylinder full from each gun. Temprature was 94 degrees with a slight left to right breeze.

Targets were at 20 yds from front of bench and the muzzles were near edge of bench. All shots single action.

Even with a rest the shooter (me) has some effect as you still must line up sights right. But, the trigger is operated by a lever and should be pretty consistent.

My machine with Ransom K frame inserts which worked on I frame too.

1. a coil spring I frame that I replaces the 2" barrel with a 4"
The cylinder on this has never been reamed.

2 a 4" model 18-4. Cylinder has been reamed although ejection was never a problem with it. Top hole is 2 touching

3 a 4" K22 5 screw, with a never reamed cylinder

4 a 17-3 6" barrel with a red ramp front sight, reamed cylinder

5 a 4 screw with a 6" barrel, patridge sight and reamed cylinder

6 a 5 screw with a 6' barrel, patridge sight and never reamed cylinder

You can all draw what ever conclusions you want from this. Some of the spread is probably on me. Some of the guns may have improved with other ammo. I have lots of standard velocity sub sonic, Winchester, Remington, American Eagle etc etc. I just walked in my loading room and grabbed a handy box of name brand ammo.

But, what is obviously, is that reaming sure never hurt the 17-3's accuracy and it was the reason I first reamed a K22 cylinder

 

[MajorD]

Steelslaver- if you are going to the trouble or ransom rest testing and trying to determine accuracy please use something other than an ammo in the worst possible class for accuracy and quality control- Remington and Winchester rimfire ammo is notorious for being trash accur wise.
Some good standard velocity ammo preferably European will give you much more valid results

 

[Moo Moo]

Great work Steelslaver.

Excuse my ignorance, but after you ream a blue .22lr cylinder, do you have to re-blue each of the finished chambers?

 

[steelslaver]

If anything you can just clean chambers well with brake cleaner and then cold blue using a Q tip, but 22 ammo being kind of dirty will stain them anyway

As far as the ammo I chose not suiting everyone. While it may not be the best, it was equal across the board. I will wait for the results of their testing with a machine rest and better ammo using multiple K22s with reamed and non reamed cylinders, but I will not be holding my breath while I wait.

If they want me to do it I will gladly provide my address for them to send me a brick of ammunition that suits them.

Ideally the test would be to take one with sticky extraction, find just which ammo it shoots best, then ream the cylinder and re test using the same ammo.

I invite anyone to sent me a K22 with sticky extraction to preform that test on.

I think the group shot by the model 17-3 with the reamed cylinder and the Winchester ammo shows that a K22 with a reamed cylinder still has far more accuracy than 99.9% of shooters have ability. While the rest of the guns may achieve better groups with different ammo, the 17-3 would certainly not loose accuracy using match grade ammo.

 

[toad67]

Steelslaver- if you are going to the trouble or ransom rest testing and trying to determine accuracy please use something other than an ammo in the worst possible class for accuracy and quality control- Remington and Winchester rimfire ammo is notorious for being trash accur wise.
Some good standard velocity ammo preferably European will give you much more valid results

S/S was obviously out of Grey Poupon.....

 

[steelslaver]

S/S was obviously out of Grey Poupon.....

As well as tolerance for those with little to contribute but criticism.

 

[SS336]

Thanks to he OP and everyone who posted.
I found this very informative. I have only one .22 revolver, a 617-4, that I am fond of but it has a quirk in that it 2 groups. 6 rounds will have 5 very tight and one out just a bit. Not much, 3/8th of an inch, but enough to notice at 25yds.
I spent a lot of time at the range with it to figure out which chamber was the culprit and marked it. I used the revolver for rimfire silhouette club matches and did fine. I never used that chamber since each station is five rounds.
So the question is would chamber reaming help it any? Would it be worth the effort?

 

[steelslaver]

While I doubt it would hurt I also doubt it would help. If it was a tight throat on that chamber it might as the chamber reamer would take the throat to .222 I would suspect something else. A stop notch that was off a bit maybe or a just slightly off chamber. If you reamed a slightly of chamber it would remain in exactly the same spot just be perfectly round and a very tiny bit bigger if at all undersized.
You know which chamber it is, so line that one up with barrel and see it the stop notch that is locked up has more slack than the rest. If you have a cleaning rod, piece of brass or the like that just fits down the bore to function as a range rod you can see if it hangs up on the edge of the chamber, but as the lands are smaller than the chamber it is not a perfect check for alignment. Be 100% POSITIVE CYLINDER IS EMPTY then cock the gun and from the side shine real bright light at the B/C gap and look down the bore and look at the shadows, look down the bore with the light. I don't know how much you can see with a 22. but with bigger bores you can see if a chamber is off very much. More gap gives more light. I bought a small camera I can hook to my phone and slide down a barrel, but not a 22 barrel as the lens piece is 6mm.

Another thought I have had is to turn a piece of brass to just fit the chamber with a small hole dead center in it. In the case of a 22 a 1/ 8" hole would work. You could even use a fired piece of brass in a 22 to "shim" out the chamber to see if your range rod drug on the inside of case. With the dummy piece I was speaking of you could make up and run a range rod that just fit the lands down the bore and it it has a short 1/8" tip on it that rip would not enter the 1/8" hole in center your test blank if chamber was misaligned. I have made brass test that just fit 45 , 44, 357 and 32 barrels, but have never made on for a 22. Mine have a hole in one end threaded at 1/4 20. If I screw in piece of a 1/4 20 bolt that I cut the head off and turned to a point it tells me if the barrel is dead straight in line with the firing pin hole on a center fire.

I spend entirely to much time messing with revolvers

 

[SS336]

Thanks for the info and suggestions steelslaver. I might try some of them and at least gives me an idea where to start.
Probably not much I can do to correct it, and I might be over critical.
Thanks again.

 

[steelslaver]

Question. Where is the odd strike in comparison to the rest? It would be interesting to figure out. You would think that a high or low strike would mean the chamber was slightly off high or low and a left or right strike the chamber of a bit laterally. The forcing cone is supposed to help align the chamber to the bore as bullet moves from throat to barrel.

It is actually pretty amazing how accurate revolvers are with 6 separate chambers each held in place by a small lock in a small slot. Each needing a bit of tolerance to function. The lock needs to have enough clearance to move quickly up and down with little pressure from the trigger and the lock spring, the notch in cylinder has to have a bit of clearance to have the tip of lock to go in it everytime. The axis of the cylinder must have just enough clearance to be turned easily, on the yoke tube, by the tip of the hand engaging a small tooth. The case heads all need a little bit of head space to smoothly slide across the recoil shield to get in position. All of these adding as little pressure as possible as the trigger cocks the hammer, which swings in an arc. The bullet jumping from the cylinder throat into the forcing cone to finally engage the rifling.

The fact that most of mine can shoot about 1" groups at 20 yards with regular ammo amazes me.

You look at rifles, with a single chamber 100% fixed to the bore with no gap to transition. The round can fit much tighter being cammed in place by a rotating bolt that locks up with almost zero head space, faster lock time and a straight line firing pin powered by a spring directly on that firing pin, to say nothing about a way longer barrel.

 

[Protocall_Design]

Revolvers are kind of like Bumble Bees. There's no way they should work as well as they do (when everything is right), but they still are often more accurate than semi auto pistols. It boggles the mind.

 

[steelslaver]

I tell you what amazes me is that they were able to built them with the equipment they had in the 1860s. I have a lot more going for me equipment wise than they did and I would be hard pressed to make a decent top break or hand ejector. They made most of their own cutters, screws, rifling jigs, drill bits reamers etc. Building the first triple lock in 1908 was a true feat of engineering and machining.

 

[AzShooter]

And all it takes is one Bubba these days with a Dremel to screw it all up.

 

[Protocall_Design]

That's all it ever took. It is far easier to destroy than to build. Think of all the thousands of people, the acres of buildings with machinery, the hundreds of years of technology and the money it takes to build a car. Then realize that one idiot with a baseball bat can destroy that car in 10 minutes.

 

[steelslaver]

Ya Bubba was wrecking guns long before the Dremel came along. Power tools just make it happen faster.

 

[mitchjt]

Thank you for this post. I too have loading and clearing issues with my 617. I just ordered the Brownells cylinder reamer. My inexpensive Ruger Wrangler also needs some help.

 

[BC38]

That's all it ever took. It is far easier to destroy than to build. Think of all the thousands of people, the acres of buildings with machinery, the hundreds of years of technology and the money it takes to build a car. Then realize that one idiot with a baseball bat can destroy that car in 10 minutes.

Yeah or even less when DUI-ing said car into a tree...