617 push off

[bobf]

I traded for a 617 no dash with problems. Push-off is bad, not much better than a tied back trigger. The hammer and trigger look newer than the gun.

I don't see anything wrong with the trigger or hammer studs but don't know enough about the hammer/trigger to make a WAG I think Bubba did it.

My question: is it likely a gunsmith can fix this or should I start looking for a new hammer and trigger. I do realize this would be easier if you could see it.

Bob

 

[2hawk]

bobf, have you seen the FAQS? Go down to post #6, it may give you a little help if you want to try to correct this yourself.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-smithing/94072-faqs.html



Of course, we can't tell if the sear is toast or not, but this might be the solution. HTH

 

[shawn mccarver]

Before you do anything else, make sure the strain screw is tightened all the way down, and that it is the correct length, i.e. that it has not been shortened.

 

[bobf]

I did see that, do you move the stone side to side or how do you keep the correct angle when you move the stone? I can remove and reinstall the internal parts but that's the extent of my experience.

 

[bobf]

The strain screw seems to be correct if I can find the length I'll measure it. I have changed springs in several guns, cocking the hammer feels normal I have some that are easier.
Bob

Before you do anything else, make sure the strain screw is tightened all the way down, and that it is the correct length, i.e. that it has not been shortened.

 

[2hawk]

Side to side won't cause the angle to change if you can keep the distance pretty much the same during the process. That said, I have done a back and forth after reading Kuhnhausen's manual, and determining that the angle I wanted would be better achieved that way. The exact angle will determine single action trigger pull (heavy v. light), and also the likelihood, or not, of developing push off again.

Be aware that carelessness can destroy parts, and/or make for an unsafe gun. You should be comfortable with the idea of doing your own work before you undertake anything- if you are not, then that's what gunsmiths are for, right?

It should go w/o saying, but shawncarver has made an important observation, and I would like to expand on that by saying choose the path of least potential harm, just as a guiding philosophy. Along that line, go with the very minimum of stoning if you decide that you are going to give it a try. Good Luck, and keep us posted!

ETA worth having if you are doing your own work: http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-t...the-s-w-revolver-a-shop-manual-prod25717.aspx

 

[bobf]

Thanks for the info I will let you know what happens. I was looking at it just now and the trigger didn't completely reset one time.
Tomorrow I will put in a new mainspring, rebound spring and measure the strain screw then see where I am.

Thanks again for the help
Bob

 

[2hawk]

Hey Bob,

I had to think a little while on how I used the information diagrammed. Sorry for the slow response.

So, when you look at the diagram, where the stone is on the sear is where you start, and then move the stone so that you are cutting with the last 1-1/2 or so (the part hanging off the sear to the left in the diagram).

This becomes much more clear when you use a magnifier to look at the sear. It is radiused, and the motion described will more or less follow the factory shape. And, it is sharp- you want to stone so you don't draw a burr off the edge, that would be bad.

Apologies for not having the memory I should, but it is what it is- and it sure ain't what it was
HTH

 

[bobf]

Thanks now I understand I thought it was flat. No apologies necessary my memory is so bad I keep forgetting how bad it is.

I really appreciate the help, after a few hours working around the place I'll be in the shop working on it.

Bob

 

[tomcatt51]

Tomorrow I will put in a new mainspring, rebound spring and measure the strain screw then see where I am.

Don't fuss over springs or the strain screw. Push-off is a mechanical, hook and notch ("sear surfaces") issue. Heavier springs can mask the issue but if you have good surfaces you won't have push-off even with no springs installed.

The (newer) MIM triggers are usually a drop-in, minor sear (the spring loaded "lever") fitting excepted. The change does require the "new style" hand spring, trigger lever, sear and sear spring to go with the trigger.

 

[bobf]

Today I was not able to find my stones, probably will just order one. I did change the springs because of the rebound spring. It covered up some of the problem but not enough to make it useable.

I did get a good look at everything and understand it much better now. I will get everything together and try again.

Thanks to all for the help I will let you know how it comes out.

Bob

 

[bobf]

Got my stone yesterday and tackled the 617 today. Following the instructions and advice of all the helpful people here the push off was quickly fixed. The trigger is still lighter than I like but is usable.

I installed a new wolff standard ribbed spring and a 14lb recoil spring. The strain screw doesn't appear to have been molested.

Is a heavier spring an option?

All of you who take the time to help those of us that don't know yet are really appreciated.

 

[tomcatt51]

The trigger is still lighter than I like but is usable.

I assume you're talking about SA pull. Is DA pull a concern or only SA?

Do you know how many lbs the SA pull is? Have or have access to a pull gauge?

 

[2hawk]

Bob, glad to hear you've got things straightened out! Congratulations- you now have new skills!

You can always go to a heavier spring; the Wolff ribbed are fine, but it is probably a little less weight than a stock spring. And the rebound spring could also go up in weight as well.

But, since you now know how to address the sear: a slight change in the angle will definitely change the engagement, and it will be where you can easily get a little heavier trigger, if that is what you want. Again, go easy; you are running out of working room with every pass of the stone, so just a stroke or two ought to do it.

Edited to add: an old trick is to take a spent primer, remove the anvil, and stick the cup on the end of the strain screw so you put a bit more tension on the spring. Cheap. And easily reversible. Good Luck!

 

[bobf]

SA is the concern I don't have a gauge but I will find one. I don't know what the lbs is right now I'll try to have a number tomorrow.

 

[bobf]

I have a couple Rugers with 2-1/4 lb trigger kits, it's not far from them.

 

[tomcatt51]

I have a couple Rugers with 2-1/4 lb trigger kits, it's not far from them.

And that's too light? There's definitely a point where how it feels is more important than what a gauge shows.

Not all hammer notches are created equal. They change too with wear. Same with trigger hooks but the hooks are easier to "fix". I've run into hammers that, while showing 2 1/2+ lbs on the gauge were "hair" triggers and not good. Before the flaming starts this was with a trigger with a good hook.

I save hammers with really good SA feel and use the ones that don't for bobbing/lightening and DAO first. On a 3 1/2 or 4 lb hammer it's frequently not noticeable but when you start going lower you can definitely feel the difference between "good" and "less good" notches. It's potluck.

Almost all my (personal) CF revolvers are set up for DA with bobbed (or more radically cut) hammers. It's not uncommon for the SA pulls to end up 1 1/2 to 1 3/4 lbs with the work done to get a 5 1/2ish lb DA pull. The SA pull is just a by-product of the DA work. A good hammer/trigger pairing can be that low and NOT be a hair trigger or push off.

On 17/617s DA pulls with good ignition end up 8ish lbs but can still end up with <2 lb SA pulls. 17/617s DON'T get their hammers bobbed or lightened.

Just my 2 cents FWIW.

 

[bobf]

And that's too light? There's definitely a point where how it feels is more important than what a gauge shows.

Not all hammer notches are created equal. They change too with wear. Same with trigger hooks but the hooks are easier to "fix". I've run into hammers that, while showing 2 1/2+ lbs on the gauge were "hair" triggers and not good. Before the flaming starts this was with a trigger with a good hook.

I save hammers with really good SA feel and use the ones that don't for bobbing/lightening and DAO first. On a 3 1/2 or 4 lb hammer it's frequently not noticeable but when you start going lower you can definitely feel the difference between "good" and "less good" notches. It's potluck.

Almost all my (personal) CF revolvers are set up for DA with bobbed (or more radically cut) hammers. It's not uncommon for the SA pulls to end up 1 1/2 to 1 3/4 lbs with the work done to get a 5 1/2ish lb DA pull. The SA pull is just a by-product of the DA work. A good hammer/trigger pairing can be that low and NOT be a hair trigger or push off.

On 17/617s DA pulls with good ignition end up 8ish lbs but can still end up with <2 lb SA pulls. 17/617s DON'T get their hammers bobbed or lightened.

Just my 2 cents FWIW.

They are not too light but definitely have a different feel.

Thanks for more to think about.

 

[bobf]

I don't have a real gauge yet but did come up with a digital scale which seems to be accurate checking known weights.

The trigger pull I'm getting is DA 9.1 - 9.5 and SA 1.2 - 1.5. I'll try to use weights on it tomorrow to get a more accurate reading.

 

[tomcatt51]

DA 9.1 - 9.5 and SA 1.2 - 1.5.

That sounds like you still have trigger hook / hammer notch issues. With a Wolff reduced hammer spring and a clipped (~2 coils) 11 lb rebound spring I don't end up that light.