625-8 bullet creep

[LostintheOzone]

I'm having issues with bullets creeping out of the cases when I shoot my 625-8. Nothing major, just one or two every 50 rds or so. I'm using Bayou coated 240 gr lead and a LFC die to crimp. This has been going on awhile and the last batch of ammo I built I put a pretty heavy taper crimp on all of it. It's all range brass and I inspect it when I resize and discard the ones that feel too work worn when I bell the cases.

I'm wondering if 200 gr bullets might help solve the problem. Or maybe FMJ, but I would really like to solve this problem using the coated 240's because I have a few thousand and bullets are hard to find these days. I use these in my Gold Cup without issue.

Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.

 

[STORMINORMAN]

My suggestion would be to review your expansion process. Even with coated lead bullets your expanded cases should still fit in a gauge, cylinder or chamber before you load the bullet and apply a crimp.

Expanding cases just enough to get the bullet started (without shaving) can really help.

The other possibility is actual bullet size: some 45 acp bullets seem to vary widely in diameter...?

Cheers!

 

[glenwolde]

Skip the Lee FCD. It may be resizing the lead bullets down. You could measure a bullet, load, pull it, and measure. They do that sometimes. If so switching bullets won't help.

Since there's a groove a roll crimp would be my preference. Back in the day for magnum loads we'd roll crimp and taper crimp. Then there's the Redding Profile Crimp die....that's the most elegant solution.

 

[Hair Trigger]

A roll crimp is what you want for revolver bullets. The case edge actually cuts into the bullet, holding it in place in the case. The cannelure in jacketed bullets and some lead/cast bullets gives the roll a place to grab. Taper crimps are more intended for cartridges that headspace on the case mouth, leaving an edge out that stops against the front of the chamber. Your M625-8 will headspace on the front of the case, but if you are using moon clips (which I imagine you would for ease of extraction), they then headspace on the clip.

 

[rockquarry]

"Range" pickup brass puts you at a disadvantage before you start. Brass from the same batch or at least the same brand that you know the history of is better and comes without the attendant headaches of seemingly "free" stuff.

Use either a taper crimp or a roll crimp, maybe experiment with both and use varying degrees of crimp. Crimp is a relative term and there is no standard. What one person calls heavy another may call light or moderate.

Use just enough crimp hold the bullet in place under recoil and no more. I suppose you could use the Lee FCD die but it's not necessary.

After a long time of doing this, I find it hard to buy into the heavy crimp provides better ignition theory, but there are always exceptions. This will take some work if you want to do it right, but it will be worth the effort in terms of getting the crimp right and finding the best accuracy.

I'd fire ten-shot groups at 25 yards from a good benchrest using good technique and using the smallest aiming point you can see clearly that doesn't promote eye fatigue. This will quickly weed out the poorer loads and crimps. Good luck-

 

[LostintheOzone]

A roll crimp is what you want for revolver bullets. The case edge actually cuts into the bullet, holding it in place in the case. The cannelure in jacketed bullets and some lead/cast bullets gives the roll a place to grab. Taper crimps are more intended for cartridges that headspace on the case mouth, leaving an edge out that stops against the front of the chamber. Your M625-8 will headspace on the front of the case, but if you are using moon clips (which I imagine you would for ease of extraction), they then headspace on the clip.

Yes, I checked the cyl. and it will headspace on the mouth if not using moon clips. I use moon clips. Your solution sounds like the easiest way to solve this. I was trying to use the same ammo in all of my 45 ACP firearms but it looks like that isn't going to work with this 625.

I'll look for a 45 ACP roll crimp.

 

[STORMINORMAN]

"Skip the Lee FCD. It may be resizing the lead bullets down."

Or, it may not...?

If there is immediate resistance when using the FCDs (bullet resizing vs. returning the flared case mouth to the die's dimension) the oversized bullet might be part of the problem?

Roll crimp at the canellure does work with moon clips, BTW.

 

[Dale53]

I have shot tens of thousands of my home cast bullets from my 625-8 (200 grs. to 250 grs) without issue. There is a simple solution to the O.P.'s problem.

I use the Lee FC die. However, as issued by Lee the FC die has a taper crimp insert as is typical with .45 ACP dies. When you wish to use heavier bullets with a crimp groove, you NEED a roll crimp insert in the Lee Die. Yep, Lee makes a roll crimp insert.

Note: the roll crimp insert is shorter than the taper crimp insert and requires an additional spacer. I just called Lee direct, got ahold of a technician and asked for a roll crimp insert along with the extra insert (ASK for the additional insert) and they will send it to you. As I remember, it was only about $7.50 or so.

I continue to use the taper crimp insert on bullets which require it but use the roll crimp insert + spacer when I need a roll crimp.

This will TOTALLY solve your bullet move problem. I suggest a "medium" roll crimp using the crimp groove in the heavier bullet.

FWIW
Dale53

 

[H Richard]

I load all my .45's the same for revolver or semi-auto. I use the 200 gr cast or powder coat bullets. I crimp with a separate taper crimp die, and crimp .003". I have never had a problem with bullet creep.

 

[jcelect]

Rule of thumb! Roll crimp=revolver loads taper crimp= auto round! This is very important when shooting heavy bullets fast in large calibers!
jcelect

 

[rockquarry]

Rule of thumb! Roll crimp=revolver loads taper crimp= auto round! This is very important when shooting heavy bullets fast in large calibers!
jcelect

Generally true, but much too broad a statement and there are notable exceptions.

One that many are unaware of is the use of a roll crimp for .45 ACP loads in a 1911-type setup. I'm not suggesting this, but roll crimps were very popular for match shooting some years ago. In fact, there was an article in AMERICAN RIFLEMAN (from the mid-'60s, I think) written by one of the well-known accuracy pistolsmiths of that era, Alton Dinan, that advocated the use of roll crimping for the .45 ACP. Seems Dinan did a good bit of testing to back up his claims.

I used to have a Star Universal press in .45 ACP. It was set up for roll crimping only. I've tried both roll crimping and taper crimping in .45 ACP. You'd have to do a lot of shooting to see any appreciable difference in functioning, feeding, reliability, or accuracy.

 

[LostintheOzone]

These are the bullets I'm using.

.45 ACP 230 Gr. RN - Bayou Bullets

There is no canneilure or crimp groove. I just ordered a Redding 45 Auto Rim roll crimp die. Those are not easy to find. I may just get some AR brass also.

Thanks to everyone for the suggestions.

 

[iouri]

You may want to disassemble round after crimping and check that FCD doesn't swage the bullet.

 

[zeke]

Are the rounds where the bullet pulls the same brand of brass? If so, might consider culling that brand out. Rem 45 acp brass is thinner,harder and less elastic. Might also consider a belling die that does not expand the inner case dia past the mouth.

Coated 230 lrn should not be pulling under normal loads, but you idn't mention what the load is.

 

[LostintheOzone]

Are the rounds where the bullet pulls the same brand of brass? If so, might consider culling that brand out. Rem 45 acp brass is thinner,harder and less elastic. Might also consider a belling die that does not expand the inner case dia past the mouth.

Coated 230 lrn should not be pulling under normal loads, but you idn't mention what the load is.

4.6 grs American Select. It's a pretty mild load that I worked up myself. Alliant says 6.0 grs max. so I know it's a kitten. I thought 5.0 grs. was a little hot. Excellent powder for 45 ACP and 12 ga shotguns. Don't tell anyone.

ETA. That load may not cycle a slide on an auto. My HK45 didn't like it. 5.0 grs/240 grn. for autos.

 

[glenwolde]

These are the bullets I'm using.

.45 ACP 230 Gr. RN - Bayou Bullets

There is no canneilure or crimp groove. I just ordered a Redding 45 Auto Rim roll crimp die. Those are not easy to find. I may just get some AR brass also.

Thanks to everyone for the suggestions.

We have some bullet confusion. In your first post you said 240 gr and my mind went to a SWC with a crimp groove.

I still think this could be the FCD. It's a known issue with lead bullets. As we all know lead bullets are slightly oversized compared to jacketed bullets. The Lee FCD has a sizing ring that's intended to insure the loaded round conforms to factory specifications. Factory ammo is loaded with jacketed bullets (these days). It sizes the entire reloaded cartridge.

When you run a cartridge with lead bullets into the FCD, it sizes the brass and bullet down together. The problem comes from the natural tendencies for metals to "spring back" after being sized. Unfortunately lead and brass don't spring back at the same rate. A poly coat probably complicates matters further somehow.

With the load you are using you should not be having an issue. I have tried using Lee FCD's with lead bullets and I have had a problem upon occasion. Lee FCD's are the subject of some debate among reloaders and I don't really want to start that up again. One of the replies above talked about changing out the taper crimp for a roll crimp. I'm thinking you can remove the sizing ring and use just the taper crimp. But it's been a while since I've messed with a FCD. See if you can remove the sizing ring and just try that.

I have a few Lee FCDs but rarely use them and when I do it's more for troubleshooting or "reclamation" than production so I'm not intimately familiar with them. I was unaware you could swap out the crimp.

 

[STORMINORMAN]

Going to 45 AutoRim is one solution that will surely work! I load the MBC coated 200gr RNFP in it & 45 Colt as well.

Cheers!

 

[rockquarry]

Going to 45 AutoRim is one solution that will surely work! I load the MBC coated 200gr RNFP in it & 45 Colt as well.

Cheers!

I taper crimp .45 Auto Rim regardless of the bullet style and weight, though I only use cast bullets. I've never had a problem with bullet movement, even with a 255 grain .45 Colt bullet. I use a minimum crimp, just enough to keep everything in place and no more. I pay no attention to crimp grooves. Overall length is more important to me, particularly if it makes a difference in accuracy.

I'd have to look it up, but it seems I compared Auto Rim accuracy some years ago, taper crimp vs. roll crimp. As I recall, accuracy was slightly better with the taper crimp, but the on-target results were probably hair-splitting at best. Use what works well for you.

 

[LostintheOzone]

I checked my sizing die a few days ago. It wasn't sixing the cases down to fit a gauge so I cranked it down some and they fit now. I got the Redding Die as suggested but I'm hesitant to use it on these bullets without a crimp groove. I think I'll order some 200 gr. SWC bullets just so I can tell my 625 loads from my 1911 loads.

I'm thinking the LFCD is my problem. Thanks everyone, I'll get this solved with this info.

 

[biku324]

I use Lee 45 ACP dies for my 625-8 and have had no troubles with 255 grain lswc Missouri Bullets, but I crimp them into the crimping groove. I also use Auto Rim brass.