BB57,
Thank you. I am checking their site now!
Thank you. I am checking their site now!
640-1 or 3" 60?? 357 magnum goodness!!!
- Thread starter Stopsign32v
- Start date
Then there's reality. I've fired a friend's Freedom Arms .454 Casull exactly 3 times. I laid that beast down on a shooting bench, and was afraid to look at it. That thing didn't recoil. It rattled every bone in my body. I coulda swore it left teeth marks on my shooting forearm. I believe I had suffered an acute case of CTE from shooting it. A Mt. Everest avalanche or a Rosie O'Donnell date would have been more pleasant than shooting that hand-held Howitzer.
A buddy of mine fired his buddy's "J" .357 Mag with mag rounds. He said it was worse than miserable. Bringing a retired cop, he said it was not a tactical handgun. The guy who owns it was trying to entice my buddy to buy it. He did the opposite. He enticed my buddy to keep his money.
The reality is the .357 Mag gets its impressive -if not embellished- velocity using double-based, slow burning powder out of 8.375" barrels. Out of shorter barrels, .357 Mag powder does not reach its peak pressure, meaning velocity loss is substantial. I've chrono'd factory and hand loaded 158 grain .357 Mag rounds out of a 4" 586. With either round, it chrono'd ~1250 FPS, not exactly Dirty Harry material.
There are a lot of considerations of a suitable tactical weapon. I've owned an all stainless steel model 60 for over 30 years. I don't consider it a tactical handgun. It's primary utility is to get me out of bad trouble that could cause elevated blood pressure and tunnel vision. It is a strictly defensive weapon designed to buy me running away time.
After many, many hours of profession handgun training, I got to thinking, an activity I ought to engage more frequently before buying handguns, that for self-defense there ain't a whole lot of difference between the .357 Mag and the FBI load (.38 Special 158 grains LSWCHP +P) when either are fired out of 4" barrels, a length I consider ideal for a tactical handgun. So when I did carry my Model 586 for self-defense, it was loaded with the FBI load. In fact, I've never carried .357 Magnum rounds for bipedal self-defense. I've always gone with the FBI load.
Were you to ask me, and I know you haven't, I'd go with the .357 Mag has having too many self-defense negatives, exponentially more so out of a 2" barreled gun, to make it viable. First is its thoroughly unfriendly and downright hostile recoil. Were a bad guy shooting at me, my gun had better be pointed at him, not recoiling at the damned sky. Hence, the FBI load has the benefit of sight picture retention. Especially at night, .357 muzzle flash is seen from orbit, which will destroy your night vision, which means you won't have to worry about sight picture retention because you'll be temporarily blinded, which hands advantage to a bad guy, which could facilitate your engaging in an early conversation with St. Peter. Not lastly but of last importance here, the .357 Mag has disorienting muzzle blast when fired under a corrugated tin roof. Try firing a .357 Mag round in an enclosed room. A Muhammad Ali noggin punch couldn't be more disorienting. Since our hearing and our heads not vibrating are important for sight picture retention and survival, not to mention lucidity retention, the FBI load is far more suitable for the job.
Self-defense means different things to different people. For me, it means staying alive, which means avoiding gunfights. I don't like the idea of a bad guy wanting to transform me from animate trout marauder to a corpse, thus becoming evidence that he's done murdered me. If I can't avoid, I'll be thinking that exit, any stage, is my next best option. Were I to get shot by a bad guy, it could mean that trout will be safe from the Dirty Harry of trout fishing (that'd be me).
Having a lot of experience with a 2" Model 60 chambered for .38 Special, I can tell you definitively, without equivocation, with complete clarity, and absent confusion that it ain't a target gun. Accuracy and Model 60 go together like Barack Obama and individual liberty. It's a point-and-shoot gun. At ~10', were a good guy to take time to aim, chances are that the best possible outcome is a tie: dead and dead. Only a fool would trade his life for a bad guy's life. Live and live has a much sweeter melody to my ears.
When I shoot my Model 60, it's at ~10'. I point shoot at a silhouette's head. At 10' or less, if you don't hit a bad guy's CNS, expect to take rounds, which is worse than a Hillary administration, which would be miserably painful. In an actual gunfight, a good guy has to do a whole lot more than shoot, and some of it is probably more important than shooting: he has to avoid a bad guy's bullets, which means he cannot become a stationary target. The sad reality is bad guys know how to shoot. Some have had military training. And depending upon the bad guy, he's probably already murdered before you might cross paths with him. A bad guy murdering a good guy is a business cost to him. To assure a return policy, pick a self-defense handgun that accords you best opportunity of contacting customer service in the morning. To my way of thinking, especially out of a "J" Frame, that would be the FBI load.
OK, one last point, really, honest injun: a 2" all stainless steel Model 60 is not a lot of fun to shoot with the FBI load. I could not imagine shooting a .357 Mag though one.
OK, I lied, more stuff: I avoid light bullets almost as much as I avoid liberals. I like heavy for caliber bullets. I don't read ballistic tables. They're darn near as deceiving as a Hillary promise. I go with Big Mo, as in momentum. I want through-and-through penetration. If one hole is good, two have gotta be twice as good.
Now, were I living in a perfect world, and every time I see who's squatting at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue I'm reminded that my world is far from perfect, I'd carry a 1911A1 with 230 gain ammo. I'd be good with 230 grain ball ammo. A 1911A1 is an offensive weapon in a defensive way. Were a bad guy fixin' to put an innocent good guy (or worse, kidnap a child) on a fiberglass pathologist's gurney, a good guy armed with a 1911A1 could alter the outcome so the good guy buys you a cup of coffee (or the child is reunited with her parents) and the bad guy's lying supine on a fiberglass pathologist's gurney. A Model 60's utility is to get you outta Dodge. It'll never be an offensive weapon in a defensive way.
I darn near forgot: I do like my Model 60, which is why I have kept it all these years. And I ain't sellin' it. I wouldn't even trade it for a Kate Upton date. She should be so lucky ;-)
A buddy of mine fired his buddy's "J" .357 Mag with mag rounds. He said it was worse than miserable. Bringing a retired cop, he said it was not a tactical handgun. The guy who owns it was trying to entice my buddy to buy it. He did the opposite. He enticed my buddy to keep his money.
The reality is the .357 Mag gets its impressive -if not embellished- velocity using double-based, slow burning powder out of 8.375" barrels. Out of shorter barrels, .357 Mag powder does not reach its peak pressure, meaning velocity loss is substantial. I've chrono'd factory and hand loaded 158 grain .357 Mag rounds out of a 4" 586. With either round, it chrono'd ~1250 FPS, not exactly Dirty Harry material.
There are a lot of considerations of a suitable tactical weapon. I've owned an all stainless steel model 60 for over 30 years. I don't consider it a tactical handgun. It's primary utility is to get me out of bad trouble that could cause elevated blood pressure and tunnel vision. It is a strictly defensive weapon designed to buy me running away time.
After many, many hours of profession handgun training, I got to thinking, an activity I ought to engage more frequently before buying handguns, that for self-defense there ain't a whole lot of difference between the .357 Mag and the FBI load (.38 Special 158 grains LSWCHP +P) when either are fired out of 4" barrels, a length I consider ideal for a tactical handgun. So when I did carry my Model 586 for self-defense, it was loaded with the FBI load. In fact, I've never carried .357 Magnum rounds for bipedal self-defense. I've always gone with the FBI load.
Were you to ask me, and I know you haven't, I'd go with the .357 Mag has having too many self-defense negatives, exponentially more so out of a 2" barreled gun, to make it viable. First is its thoroughly unfriendly and downright hostile recoil. Were a bad guy shooting at me, my gun had better be pointed at him, not recoiling at the damned sky. Hence, the FBI load has the benefit of sight picture retention. Especially at night, .357 muzzle flash is seen from orbit, which will destroy your night vision, which means you won't have to worry about sight picture retention because you'll be temporarily blinded, which hands advantage to a bad guy, which could facilitate your engaging in an early conversation with St. Peter. Not lastly but of last importance here, the .357 Mag has disorienting muzzle blast when fired under a corrugated tin roof. Try firing a .357 Mag round in an enclosed room. A Muhammad Ali noggin punch couldn't be more disorienting. Since our hearing and our heads not vibrating are important for sight picture retention and survival, not to mention lucidity retention, the FBI load is far more suitable for the job.
Self-defense means different things to different people. For me, it means staying alive, which means avoiding gunfights. I don't like the idea of a bad guy wanting to transform me from animate trout marauder to a corpse, thus becoming evidence that he's done murdered me. If I can't avoid, I'll be thinking that exit, any stage, is my next best option. Were I to get shot by a bad guy, it could mean that trout will be safe from the Dirty Harry of trout fishing (that'd be me).
Having a lot of experience with a 2" Model 60 chambered for .38 Special, I can tell you definitively, without equivocation, with complete clarity, and absent confusion that it ain't a target gun. Accuracy and Model 60 go together like Barack Obama and individual liberty. It's a point-and-shoot gun. At ~10', were a good guy to take time to aim, chances are that the best possible outcome is a tie: dead and dead. Only a fool would trade his life for a bad guy's life. Live and live has a much sweeter melody to my ears.
When I shoot my Model 60, it's at ~10'. I point shoot at a silhouette's head. At 10' or less, if you don't hit a bad guy's CNS, expect to take rounds, which is worse than a Hillary administration, which would be miserably painful. In an actual gunfight, a good guy has to do a whole lot more than shoot, and some of it is probably more important than shooting: he has to avoid a bad guy's bullets, which means he cannot become a stationary target. The sad reality is bad guys know how to shoot. Some have had military training. And depending upon the bad guy, he's probably already murdered before you might cross paths with him. A bad guy murdering a good guy is a business cost to him. To assure a return policy, pick a self-defense handgun that accords you best opportunity of contacting customer service in the morning. To my way of thinking, especially out of a "J" Frame, that would be the FBI load.
OK, one last point, really, honest injun: a 2" all stainless steel Model 60 is not a lot of fun to shoot with the FBI load. I could not imagine shooting a .357 Mag though one.
OK, I lied, more stuff: I avoid light bullets almost as much as I avoid liberals. I like heavy for caliber bullets. I don't read ballistic tables. They're darn near as deceiving as a Hillary promise. I go with Big Mo, as in momentum. I want through-and-through penetration. If one hole is good, two have gotta be twice as good.
Now, were I living in a perfect world, and every time I see who's squatting at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue I'm reminded that my world is far from perfect, I'd carry a 1911A1 with 230 gain ammo. I'd be good with 230 grain ball ammo. A 1911A1 is an offensive weapon in a defensive way. Were a bad guy fixin' to put an innocent good guy (or worse, kidnap a child) on a fiberglass pathologist's gurney, a good guy armed with a 1911A1 could alter the outcome so the good guy buys you a cup of coffee (or the child is reunited with her parents) and the bad guy's lying supine on a fiberglass pathologist's gurney. A Model 60's utility is to get you outta Dodge. It'll never be an offensive weapon in a defensive way.
I darn near forgot: I do like my Model 60, which is why I have kept it all these years. And I ain't sellin' it. I wouldn't even trade it for a Kate Upton date. She should be so lucky ;-)
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BB57,
I would like to politely disagree with your assessment that a Model 60 is too heavy for pocket carry. Depending upon what I was wearing, I'd carry it without a holster in a back pocket. I've had it who knows how many front jacket pockets. I've carried it in my waistband with and without a holster. During the big hair era of the 80's, I'd hide it in my ex-wife do. Well, that might not be exactly true, but it is easy to carry.
I would like to politely disagree with your assessment that a Model 60 is too heavy for pocket carry. Depending upon what I was wearing, I'd carry it without a holster in a back pocket. I've had it who knows how many front jacket pockets. I've carried it in my waistband with and without a holster. During the big hair era of the 80's, I'd hide it in my ex-wife do. Well, that might not be exactly true, but it is easy to carry.
I got a request for pictures of both sides of the Covert Carry holster:
This shows one side on my Model 60 and the other side on my Model 13 holster. They are natural leather colored like the one on the bottom, but they darken a bit with wear and look like the one on the top fairly soon. It also shows their slip over speed loader carrier. it lets you slip 2 or 3 rounds over the top of your belt and gives it a much lower profile.
This shows one side on my Model 60 and the other side on my Model 13 holster. They are natural leather colored like the one on the bottom, but they darken a bit with wear and look like the one on the top fairly soon. It also shows their slip over speed loader carrier. it lets you slip 2 or 3 rounds over the top of your belt and gives it a much lower profile.
Not a problem. I am not a fan of pocket carry with a Model 36 or a Model 60, particularly a Model 60 with a 3" barrel.
But there is plenty of room for other preferences and opinions on the subject.
Hi BB57,
I agree 100% with other preferences and opinions. WHat's right for me might just be all wrong for another. When I'm asked, I reply to research, hold, and test fire. Shooters have to buy guns that are right for them, not right for others.
Stay safe, hombre,
P-2299
OP
Stopsign32v
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Congrats on your new GLOCK! The G19 is truly an iconic and very effective self-defense handgun.
There might be one on my cleaning table below...
On edit: When you posted your purchase choice I'm sure some here likely spit coffee on their screens.
Edmo
VERY nice collection! I love me some G19s. Here's my year 1988. Original down to its 2 early mags and 1987 Award sticker on the box.
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Bill In Texas
Member
P229, LOL! Twice!
OP
Stopsign32v
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WELL I GOT MY FIRST SMITH!!!!!!!!! THE collection has started. It's neither of these but is a 357 magnum (what else?!). But isn't a 1980 to present so this is the wrong section. Lol
Edmo
US Veteran
VERY nice collection! I love me some G19s. Here's my year 1988. Original down to its 2 early mags and 1987 Award sticker on the box.
Your G19 looks like a Gen2 model...
My Gen2 G23 is at the top left of my pic.
Congrats on your 357 Magnum. Which model? Pics? Although it isn't in the "1980 until Present" category, you have to at least close out the thread with a pic!
Edmo
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Stopsign32v
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