929 going back. Horrible accuracy

[billiroquois]

I really don't know what effect the plating would have, its not as thick as a jacketed bullets but since I haven't tried it I wouldn't recommend it. I believe there are a couple of bullet mfg. companies that sell bullets in .001 increments. If you can I'd try the cast bullets first, go slow and load at the milder end of the scale. I've been using W231 lately with good results. As always reference several reloading manuals and keep in mind that you are playing with larger diameter bullets so variables are different then whats published. I'm sure the best way to do this is to have a gunsmith measure the cylinder and bore to be on the safe side. I felt comfortable moving slowly and knew the risks.
My crude measurements included dropping .356 down the cylinder without any resistance was a clue. I also could drop .357 through with the slightest push from a cleaning rod. In the early stages of figuring this out I dug bullets out of the backstop and compared the rifling marks to others I had fired from a 686 (different bullet profile so I knew the difference), both were plated and the ones from the 929 were hard to see the rifling when comparing. All crude methods but moving slowly and carefully I was able to turn a terrible shooting 929 into one of my favorites and now have another hobby in casting!!!! I hope this helps, I played with this project for months but in the end it was worth it..

 

[jaymoore]

S&W seems to be back to it's old shenanigans of making pistol cartridge throats oversize. Was a long "tradition" with the .45 ACP starting with the US M1917 revolvers. Both my 986 and 929 have throats that run 0.357" and larger. 0.358" cast bullets work best for me but aren't for quick reloads! Generally the rounds will have to be pressed forward a bit.

In my loading records book the reference for these two firearms is listed as "0.358"x19mm". 'Cuz it's not a 9x19mm anymore!

 

[lrrifleman]

@ Bluedot,

Thank you for posting the pictures of your 625 and 627. I will be honest, I haven't held or examined a new S&W revolver in close to 20 years. Are my eyes deceiving me, or is there a liner or insert in the barrels of your 2 N frames? If there are liners in the barrels, when did S&W start doing that?

 

[BLUEDOT37]

No liner/inserts. They are one piece barrels with broached cut rifling. It's just the way they flat cut the crown, & the shading, that probably makes it look that way.

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[Lou_the_welder]

No liner/inserts. They are one piece barrels with broached cut rifling. It's just the way they flat cut the crown, & the shading, that probably makes it look that way.

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ECR they call it. I've heard them mention it as ECM. Electric chemical rifling or electric chemical machining.

Broached rifling although looks cleaner is cut into the metal. ECR uses electricity and acid to cut into the metal. This process gives the crown a pretty rough look and sometimes the lands are indistinguishable. Smith and wesson recommends using jacketed ammo on these barrels. The hardness of the jacketed ammo actually smoothens it out.

The barrels with the liners are like a 327 that uses a shroud around the barrel. Even the 66-69 models have a 2 piece barrel. These are newer designed. You can see how the barrel is screwed, locked and the shroud is around this one.

This is a model 66 one. Same design of sorts but has a cover in the front to hide the barrel with the crown cover. You can see the shroud around.

This is an example of the ugly. ECR. spoke to smith and wesson customers service this morning. Jacketed bullets are supposed to clean up the crown. Lands brand new were indistinguishable. They seem to be appearing after 2k rounds.

looks rough huh. The ugly is its accurate. Just not broached.

 

[H30]

I really don't know what effect the plating would have, its not as thick as a jacketed bullets but since I haven't tried it I wouldn't recommend it. I believe there are a couple of bullet mfg. companies that sell bullets in .001 increments. If you can I'd try the cast bullets first, go slow and load at the milder end of the scale. I've been using W231 lately with good results. As always reference several reloading manuals and keep in mind that you are playing with larger diameter bullets so variables are different then whats published. I'm sure the best way to do this is to have a gunsmith measure the cylinder and bore to be on the safe side. I felt comfortable moving slowly and knew the risks.
My crude measurements included dropping .356 down the cylinder without any resistance was a clue. I also could drop .357 through with the slightest push from a cleaning rod. In the early stages of figuring this out I dug bullets out of the backstop and compared the rifling marks to others I had fired from a 686 (different bullet profile so I knew the difference), both were plated and the ones from the 929 were hard to see the rifling when comparing. All crude methods but moving slowly and carefully I was able to turn a terrible shooting 929 into one of my favorites and now have another hobby in casting!!!! I hope this helps, I played with this project for months but in the end it was worth it..

I measured my throats with a Starrett telescoping gage and they are inded .358

 

[BLUEDOT37]

ECR they call it. I've heard them mention it as ECM. Electric chemical rifling or electric chemical machining.

Broached rifling although looks cleaner is cut into the metal.

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Those two (625PC & 627PC) are not ECM/EDM, they are broached. You can see that clearly in the picture of the 627PC after re-crowned; nice square lands/grooves.

S&W even states it in the 625PC literature.

• Deep Cut Broached Rifling
• Chamfered Charge Holes
• PC Custom Tear Drop Hammer
• PC Trigger with Stop
• PC Tuned Action

S&W Model 625 PC specs.

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Compare the 627PC picture to the 686+ (ECM) crown/rifling picture.

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686-8 TALO, barrel crown, before

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686-8 Talo, barrel crown, after

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[Lou_the_welder]

I asked about a 627 performance center and a 929. I was told by smith and wesson customers service this morning it was ECR and to run jacketed.

I actually called because i got home from the range the day before and cleaned yesterday the 929. I found the crown had burrs right at the tip. THEN i was reading this thread,soooo i naturally panicked and called. They asked me first how the accuracy was and my concerns. I told them it shot well to which they said the ECR process is actually alot more accurate than broached rifling even if the crown looks like it has burrs. To run it as is with jacketed rounds and that it evens out after a while.

My 627 has an ugly crown . I wouldn't mind having it look like one of yours. They said just to shoot it like the way it is.

 

[AveragEd]

S&W's Performance Center isn't the only such shop to turn out the occasional dud. Several years ago, I purchased a new Remington Model 700 M-KS, a Mountain Rifle with a matte finish in a gray Kevlar stock produced by Remington's Custom Shop. At the time, those ultralight rifles sold for $2,300. I expected very good accuracy, especially considering it was in .223 REM.

The rifle literally shot around corners. Its groups were 14 inches to the right of the aiming point and that's with a 4.5-14x Leupold VX-3 scope and Leupold's adjustable rear mount fully adjusted to move the POI to the left. I sent it back to the Custom Shop and when I heard from the shop manager, who was in contact with me several times, it was to tell me that the problem was in fact real in spite of them trying another stock and several barrels. In fact, every new barrel for that rifle in that caliber in their inventory had the same defect! Since they try to produce parts in batches, it would take a while for them to make another barrel so they obtained a Shilen barrel for the rifle, finished it to match the receiver and returned the rifle to me.

I never shot it after that repair. Someone else made me the proverbial offer I could not refuse. But you needn't feel alone in your quandary.

Ed

 

[DocB]

Some of these crowns are really depressing. I can't imagine producing something like that. . .wouldn't want my name on it.

 

[Smoke52]

I've had my 929 for about a year and the accuracy from a rest is quite good. I'm talking short range here of 30'. The rest is far from perfect as am I but I get a ragged hole. Free hand double action is another story. I have always shot double action with the compensator on. Well today, after having some trouble IE being able to hit a 2 1/2 circle at 30 feet 3 out of 8, I took the compensator off and shot the gun with a bare muzzle. All 8 shots were touching. Thinking it was a lucky cylinder I tried it again. Not quite as good but all in the 2 1/2" circle. Put on the cap that came with the gun and tried that, almost as good as bare. IMHO, the compensator is at fault for the poor accuracy issues. Tomorrow I will try the bare muzzle at 75'. I am using Winchester 147 grain jacketed ammo. Anyone else have these findings with this gun?

 

[qballwill]

I've had my 929 for about a year and the accuracy from a rest is quite good. I'm talking short range here of 30'. The rest is far from perfect as am I but I get a ragged hole. Free hand double action is another story. I have always shot double action with the compensator on. Well today, after having some trouble IE being able to hit a 2 1/2 circle at 30 feet 3 out of 8, I took the compensator off and shot the gun with a bare muzzle. All 8 shots were touching. Thinking it was a lucky cylinder I tried it again. Not quite as good but all in the 2 1/2" circle. Put on the cap that came with the gun and tried that, almost as good as bare. IMHO, the compensator is at fault for the poor accuracy issues. Tomorrow I will try the bare muzzle at 75'. I am using Winchester 147 grain jacketed ammo. Anyone else have these findings with this gun?

I sent the gun off yesterday, but i did try with the compensator and the plain cap. I want to say I noticed slightly better accuracy without the comp, but it wasn't enough to be sure.

 

[BLUEDOT37]

I asked about a 627 performance center and a 929. I was told by smith and wesson customers service this morning it was ECR and to run jacketed.

... they said the ECR process is actually alot more accurate than broached rifling

.

If the bottom two picture of your post above is the 929 then I'd agree it's ECM/EDM. If they're saying the 627PC is not broached they are wrong (mine was made in Mar-2014). It's clearly visible.

As far as the ECM/EDM being more accurate than broached it seems strange the Performance Center would use broached (on some guns), instead, if it wasn't as accurate especially since it's a optional process now that virtually all are ECM/EDM.

Personally I don't have any problems with accuracy in my ECM/EDM barrels, with plated/jacketed bullets, but mine don't like cast lead bullets (leading) at the speed I want to shoot them at, so I don't use them.

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[H30]

In this video, Jerry Miculek states that the 929 has a broached barrel.
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FgWX7S7hzus[/ame]

 

[ringram]

Im sure Ive read other threads stating the bore is .357 so to run .358 cast or .357 jacketed etc.

Thats sad because only hand loading of 9mm will allow this. Most factory ammo will be smaller and is perhaps therefore the issue with accuracy.

One previous poster had good results with .358 so Id suggest that this is where the issue lies. Perhaps you should check the bore and/or try handloads..

I have one on order and intend to handload with .357 projectiles for ipsc due to posts like this and others.

 

[BLUEDOT37]

In this video, Jerry Miculek states that the 929 has a broached barrel.

On S&W's product page for the 929 there's a different JM video & he says the same thing.

Of course the features listed on their page doesn't state that though. No surprise.

If we could see a 929 muzzle, with a good crown, it would probably be more apparent too.

Product: Model 929

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[Cakley]

Im sure Ive read other threads stating the bore is .357 so to run .358 cast or .357 jacketed etc.

Thats sad because only hand loading of 9mm will allow this. Most factory ammo will be smaller and is perhaps therefore the issue with accuracy.

One previous poster had good results with .358 so Id suggest that this is where the issue lies. Perhaps you should check the bore and/or try handloads..

I have one on order and intend to handload with .357 projectiles for ipsc due to posts like this and others.

I know the 929 will primarily be purchased by gun enthusiast who typically reload. But these guns are also sold to people who don't reload and the average joes. It's a black eye, IMO, for S&W to sell a "performance center" labeled weapon that requires it to be fitted,tuned, and then use special reloaded ammo.

 

[billiroquois]

I haven't seen anything about what S&W did to your 929 or if what they did helped. Based on the dates I would think you'd have the gun back by now. Always like to hear about the results...

 

[old&slow]

I'm getting satisfactory accuracy out of my 929, using plated bullets. However when I purchased it, I went thru 3 other 929's before I found one that had the cylinder throats to my liking.

I had 3 jacketed bullets with me, .356 ,, .357 , & .358 to check the throats. Some cylinders would take three different dia. ??

 

[qballwill]

Ahhh yes, I got the gun back a couple of weeks ago and they did absolutely nothing. Test fired it, the 3 Bullet group was about 4 or 5 inches according to the picture they sent back with it and a letter saying it met their standards.

My standards just have a bit less tolerance I guess. Really would like to get a gunsmith to check the crown and maybe smooth it out if he finds anything.