9mm 115 Gr. vs 124 Gr. vs 147 Gr.

[dbc]

Help a newbe with understanding the difference. If you use the same type Ammo with just these different Weights...what will be the difference noticed? Recoil?, Accurary? What?

Why use one over the other? How about +P in these same three weights?
Dan

 

[Bruce51]

This is an interesting question as it is part science and very subjective.
As far as accuracy that would depend on the particular gun and the abilities of the shooter. 9mm pistols have two different types of rifling. Guns made by Smith have six lands and grooves. Glocks have polygonal rifling. That is just two of the makers but each type may have its own preference.
Basically a 115 grain bullet should have the most velocity and the most footpounds of energy. The downside is it may not penetrate as well as a heavier bullet.
The 124 grain bullet has enough weight to penetrate and has a good level of speed. For the 124 as with most bullets it comes down to the design of the bullet. Will it penetrate,expand and work well for all possible situations?
The heaviest 147 certainly has enough weight but velocity is slower. While not an ideal bullet for the 9MM I personally enjoy shooting them.

I find the recoil from hot handloaded 115 bullets to be quite snappy even in an all steel pistol. Ammo we buy is not loaded to that level and is quite easy to shoot even in a compact model.

The 124 has a more noticable kick but it is not equal to hotter loaded plus p type of loads.

The 147's I shoot are very easy in recoil as velocity is under 1000fps. More of a push than a snap.

The last PDA ammo I purchased was Federal 135grJHP. I shot these through a Kahr PM9. While it seemed to be a good load it was very easy to control.


That's about all I know for sure.. Most 9MM ammo we shoot is 115FMJ at around 1100fps depending on your barrel length. If I were choosing some PDA for a gun I would get some 125JHP from Federal or another well known ammo vendor.

Bruce

 

[michael thornton]

i like 115 jhp in the 9mm , you can shoot them a little faster and thats what my gun shoots best

 

[Chuck Jones]

I believe the 9mm Parabellum was originally designed around a 124 gn bullet. The 115 was developed as a high speed load offering a little more in velocity and energy.

The 147 gn load was developed for sub-sonic use in suppressed submachine guns. I believe the SEALs were the first to use this round in their sidearms as well. It offered good accuracy and became very fashionable for a time.

In general S&W 9mm handguns are very strong and I would not hesitate shooting any weight whether standard pressure, +P, or even +P+, in any of my 3rd generation pistols.

My Browning Hi-Power, on the other hand, gets standard velocity 115 and 124 loads only, and prefers being treated like the lady she is.

/c

 

[new cal shooter]

What Pistol are you going to be shooting?

 

[Knightrider03m]

I've shot all 3 rounds and found that 115gr shoots the best for me. But I have carried 124gr for a few months before started to use +p+ loads.

 

[BreakerDan]

The 9m/m in the 147 grain load has very little recoil and noise.
It is supposed to be the most accurate loading and I have found
that to be true in my guns. The 147 load has long been a heavy
favorite (no pun intended) with the police crowd due to penetration. I prefer the 147 over all others because it tends to be the best all around performer for every need. When I carry a nine, I use 147 Hydra Shok.
Many claim that the 147 is jam prone, but I have never seen it. Penetration is in the 14" range.

The 115 grain, especially in the "+P+" chamber pressure are also very
popular. They have an excellent track record in law enforcement.
The +P+ 115 have a loud blast and a snappy recoil. They can be very accurate though. Penetration is in the 8-10" range.

The 124 seems to be the best of both worlds according to many.

It really all depends on what you are most comfortable with and what your gun shoots best. If you are using a S&W, Browning HP, or the like
you would probably have the best results from the 115 and 124.
My Browning HP was best with 115. My SIG 226 however, shoots best with 147 and has almost no recoil.

Try them all and see what you like. You will find that 9m/m shooters are generally very polarized between the slow and heavy 147 and the 115+P+ crowd. Both sides have some very valid arguments.

FWIW, the old 115gr Federal "Classic" Hi Shok (the old pre Hydra Shok) or Remington 9 m/m 115gr are great bullets that most older 9m/ms love. If you have a Browning HP or S&W 39 then you really cant beat this old load. It feeds well.

Good luck.

 

[reerc]

I have absolutely no data or real world experience to back this up, but the physics of inertia lead me to use heavier bullets, since once set in motion, they will tend to stay in motion (i.e., better penetration) than lighter objects.

Oh, and adequate penetration is "queen", right Erich"

 

[safearm]

I carry 124 grain in my 9mm guns, both revolver and semi-auto. I prefer the Speer Gold Dot 124 grain Short Barrel +P; it has a great track record, particularly with NYPD. While the 115 grain bullets can be driven to higher velocities with the same pressure, I've found that the extra muzzle blast is not worth the effort. I don't have any problem controlling the recoil from either a 3 inch barrel auto or a 2 inch barrel revolver with either a 115+P or 124+P round. I've never used 147 grain in any gun, so I can't offer an opinion on it, except that most LE agencies that carried the 147 grain 9mm either converted to another caliber, often the .40 S&W, or to another loading like the 124 grain GD.

 

[WR Moore]

To the question on +P: the +P pressure designation is for a limit of pressure higher than the limit established by SAAMI for ammo produced for use in the US. The exact amount of overpressure (from standard) varies somewhat depending upon cartridge generally running 10%-18%.

The major issue with +P ammo is that driving the same bullet faster will generally increase expansion, but also reduce penetration.

Differences in recoil vary by weapon type. With service type weapons, the difference isn't really noticable. Smaller, lighter pistols will show more of a diffence.

While 147 gr ammo can be wonderfully accurate, it's not notable for terminal performance, delivering significantly less energy.

 

[38-44HD45]

While 9x19 is not my usual preferred cartridge for primary carry, I've been known to carry 115, 124, 127 and 147gr. loads in different 9mm pistols. Most often, if I'm carrying a 9x19 as primary, it is loaded with either 127gr. WW RA9TA +P+, 124gr. +P Gold Dots, or 115gr. Cor-Bon +P JHPs. I'm confident in expansion and penetration capabilities of all three loads, and feel adequately served by any of them. I know very knowledgeable folks who like 147gr. 9mm loads, but I prefer the lighter bullets. Insufficient penetration just is not likely to be a problem with very many factory 9x19 loadings these days. Overpenetration, however, can be an issue, especially with ball. I'm told that the latest generation of 147gr. WW Ranger ammo is performing well in the field, unlike much of the earlier 147gr. loads, which were iffy on expansion. I'm hearing good things about 147gr. +P Gold Dots, too.

One other factor worth mentioning is point of impact of various bullet weights. While not as extreme as in revolvers, even in autoloaders, heavier bullets will strike higher than lighter ones. Typically, fixed-sighted 9mm pistols will hit near POA with 124 gr. bullets, with 147s hitting higher and 115s hitting lower. This is due to recoil occurring during the bullet's travel down the barrel, with more muzzle rise occurring with heavier, slower bullets, raising POI.

 

[dbc]

New Cal...
My carry pistol is a S&W 3914.

 

[David Sinko]

I'll go out on a limb here and say that there is no such thing as "over penetration." The term itself makes it sound like complete penetration of your adversary is a bad thing, from a ballistic point of view. The best way to stop your assailant who is trying to kill you is by shooting THROUGH him. That means that we'd like the bullet to expand at least a little bit and we want one hole in and another hole going out. This belief that a bullet must stay inside the adversary to "dump all its energy" is complete nonsense and is the purvey of gun writers, police chiefs and lawyers. Being concerned about being sued is one thing, but advocating the carry of less than effective ammo for the explicit purpose of not being sued is another matter entirely.

Does this mean that we want to go around carrying ball ammo? No, not at all. In this day and age we have bonded cores (Speer Gold Dot) and homogenous construction (Barnes XPB) which should expand at least a little bit and retain enough weight to punch on through. In my experience, many of our better loadings today simply lack velocity. It's unfortunate that we have some of the best technology and it's being defeated by watered down ammo. From what I've seen out on the street, we're far better served by jacketed flat points than most of the hollow points we have nowadays.

I will concur with the laws of physics and momentum in that all else being equal, heavier is almost always better.

Dave Sinko

 

[reerc]

(snip) we want one hole in and another hole going out. (snip)

Exactly. How else would Bruce Willis have killed the bad guy in that one Die Hard movie where he shot the bg right through his (Bruce's) own shoulder!

 

[38-44HD45]

Dave, to be clear, when I use the term "overpenetration," I am talking about a bullet passing completely through the target, so I think we're roughly on the same page there. And for hunting purposes, where I'm not concerned about criminal or civil consequences that might land someone in the courthouse, I agree that two bleeding holes are better than one. However, in the self-defense context, I don't want to see pass-through. I'm far less concerned about energy transfer than I am about legal ramifications, although energy transfer is a good thing, and is very real, sensationalist writings notwithstanding.

In a recent case in which I was hired as an expert witness, Good Guy shot Bad Guy 10 times with 124 gr. 9mm ball, basically peeling BG off GG's friend, who was getting the hell beaten out of him by BG, who was on probation for aggravated assault at the time. Every round penetrated through-and-through, including a few that went diagonally through BG's torso from high-shoulder level to low abdomen. (Two bullets entered BG's quadriceps muscles after exiting the abdomen, so they were the only ones that stayed anywhere in his body.) One bullet made it through to cause a wound to GG's friend's calf muscle and stopped under the skin on top of his foot. BG was DRT. GG was no-billed by the grand jury. "Friend" then sued GG, whose lawyer hired me. Rare situation, to be sure, but GG's insurance carrier paid a substantial sum to settle the case (against the advice of both GG's lawyer and yours truly). Food for thought. *

While I've not shot people to make comparisons, the forensic pathologists whose work I've seen will tell you that flat-point jacketed ammo (at least, if we're talking about truncated cones and not full wadcutters) is little to no different from round nose ball, in terms of penetration or wound channel ballistics, just as they will tell you that it is usually impossible to tell the difference between the wound paths left by 9mm from .40 from .45. Erich has handled somewhere north of 200 shooting cases and works with pathologists regularly, and they seem to be consistent on the subject. While I'd agree that some writers, both popular and ad copy types, may have overblown "energy transfer," I sure want any bullets I might have to launch at a goblin to stay inside said goblin, unless I know for sure that no non-goblins are behind him.

*For what it's worth, this shooting occurred just a few months too early, before Chapter 83 of the Texas Civil Practice and Remedies Code became effective. Our boy would have been at least arguably immune from civil suit after Chapter 83 came into effect.

 

[Robert B]

147 grain gives more penetration

I shoot Speer Golddot Hollowpoints, and I choose the 147 grainer because it penetrates the deepest.

 

[tpd223]

Strongly disagree Dave, the best way to stop a bad guy with gunfire is to hit vital structure in their body with your bullets, they do not need to go all the way through in order to accomplish this.

Ditto the comments above ref RNFMJ vs FMJFP/semi-wadcutters, in my experience they bring little or nothing to the table while also normally penetrating more than RN bullets.
One is FAR better off using modern premium JHPs for defense than using ball, be it RN or flat point.

I don't consider an exiting bullet necessarily "overpenetration", but ball rounds tend to be dangerous way downrange after going through people.

Our duty ammo here, the 124gr +P Gold Dot 9mm, normally goes all the way through on a torso shot but then will be caught up in the clothing or pop out and drop to the ground 5-10 feet behind the bad guy.

 

[dbc]

tpd223....That sounds great for the 124 Gr. +P. Based on that...what would you expect from 115 Gr. +P and a 147 Gr. +P that would make them less favorable?
Dan

 

[flop-shank]

This belief that a bullet must stay inside the adversary to "dump all its energy" is complete nonsense and is the purvey of gun writers, police chiefs and lawyers.

I don't think that a bullet necessarily has to stay inside the shootee, but in more rifle like magnum handgun loads there is no doubt in my mind that energy is a factor, particularly with bullets that throw off secondary fragments. I've seen it with my own eyes.

 

[flop-shank]

tpd223....That sounds great for the 124 Gr. +P. Based on that...what would you expect from 115 Gr. +P and a 147 Gr. +P that would make them less favorable?
Dan

I'm not tpd223, but I'll bite.

The 124 gr. is giving ideal penetration, 115s tend to give a little less, so underpenetration could be an issue with them.

If the 124+P is penetrating deep enough, going heavier (147) will give more penetration that likely is not needed. Because the bullet is heavier, it will be traveling slower and closer to it's expansion threshold (the velocity at which a bullet will begin to expand). As bullets get closer to their expansing threshold, their performance (as in reliable expansion) tends to become spotty, especially from shorter barrels. Also the heavier bullet will be lower energy (velocity is a better builder of muzzle energy than bullet weight is). I'd rather use a bullet that is too heavy than one that is too light, but if the 124s are working well, then the extra weight of the 147 is unneeded, and a robber of optimal performance, unless it is more shootable, more accurate, or hits POA.