9mm 115 Gr. vs 124 Gr. vs 147 Gr.

[tpd223]

Just to talk about apples vs apples, I'll stick to Gold Dots for now;

The 115gr +P+ Gold Dot expends a bit less than the 124gr +P Gold Dot but they penetrate about the same. The 147gr Gold Dot at standard pressure expands about the same as the 124gr +P and also penetrates about the same. All of this is due to the bullets being bonded and being designed to meet the FBI test specs for LE ammo.

Some folks prefer the 147gr since it is standard pressure and recoil is low. I prefer the +P round as it runs the gun more robustly, and in the very rare occasion I need to make a longer shot the trajectory is almost the equal to a .357Sig.

They don't make a 147gr Gold Dot in +P, and I am told it is due to pressure concerns. The 9mm case is small, so pressure spikes can happen rather easily, especially if a round is rechambered a few times too many.

I have seen some testing of the 147gr standard pressure and +P HST rounds, they pretty much work the same in gelatin.

 

[Spotteddog]

TPD,
So is what your saying, that the quality of bullet construction in the 9X19 as well as all other calibers has changed a few of the "rules" as they may have been known to exist in the past?

 

[dbc]

TPD....So if I understand you correctly....The 115Gr.+P+ the 124Gr.+P and the Std. 147Gr. in these configurations (JHP) make then all about equal?
The only variable being how well you and your pistol shoot them. Then would you agree out of the three above specs...go with the one you can get the best price and availability on? Also would the 147Gr. have the less recoil to contend with?
Dan

 

[OKFC05]

Then would you agree out of the three above specs...go with the one you can get the best price and availability on? Also would the 147Gr. have the less recoil to contend with?

Unless you are shooting an ultralight pistol or have a physical problem with your hands, recoil should not be an issue with 9mm, if you learn how to hold the gun.
The usual process is to pick a defense load that shoots to point of impact and is 100% reliable in your gun (Most important!!)
Then pick or make a practice load that uses the same weight bullet at about the same speed. (Then practice, practice)
I chose the Speer 124gr Gold Dot and load the 124 FMJ for practice.
Both these function 100% and shoot to point of aim in all the 9mm I have.

It does no good to pick the "theoretically perfect" ammo (by conjecture or consensus) if you can't buy or load it in large quantities and practice, practice.

 

[fighter62]

Federal 147 HST is a REALLY GOOD STUFF!!!!

 

[tpd223]

Spotteddog and dbc, yes to both questions.

For carry pick a quality modern bullet that works in your gun (reliability is first) and is accurate. Any of the current HST, Ranger-T and Gold Dots in 9mm will work fine for defensive use, as will the Cor Bon DPX.

For practice I use whatever I can find cheap that won't blow my gun up, which normally means "generic" boxed US factory stuff since I don't reload. I have found WWB, CCI Blazer and Lawman, Federal AE to all work fine.
I don't even worry about bullet weight in practice ammo unless I am shooting a match. 115-147gr runs my guns just fine, and POA vs POI with a 9mm out to the 25 yard line is so close that I quit worrying about it 20 years ago.

 

[David Sinko]

I figured I'd be in the minority with my comments. I've seen too many people shot with hollow points that just don't penetrate. Even the excellent Gold Dot often fails to penetrate at the velocity to which Speer loads it.

I'm not opposed to the better hollow points like the Gold Dot, but nobody is producing any velocity figures here. I can shoot the 124 gr. Gold Dot to 1158 FPS and the 147 gr. Gold Dot to 1080 FPS out of my 940 but I have no idea what the factory load will do. I bet it's quite a bit less out of the 2" barrel.

Dave Sinko

 

[michael thornton]

the lighter bullets in 9x19 come close to 357mag preformance, the heaver bullets are close to +p 38 spec, i think the newer 9mm bullets have came a long way in improving the 9x19 s preformance. no the 9mm is not my favorite carry gun, i like 44 and 45 cal guns so if they dont expand it realy doesnt matter! mike

 

[Cocked & Locked]

Also would the 147Gr. have the less recoil to contend with?

I'm no 9mm X-pert for sure, but I do like and carry Cor-Bon 147 grain +P (yes, they are +P) in my Glock 19. The box end says...+P 1100 fps.

They do have more recoil than 124 grain +P and 115 grain +P...at least in my hand but still an easily manageable load to shoot.

 

[michael thornton]

the load i carry is 115 jhp book shows it @1244 fps, that should open up? and the 115 shoot to point of aim in my glock 17, so thats what i shoot in it, now the 38 super is a whole new ball game! i have thought about getting one. mike

 

[Spotteddog]

Mike,
The concept of not enough "penetration" and then not having enough velocity to "open up" are two concepts working against one another. As any bullet begins to open, it's doing nothing more than having it's brakes applied. So for a rapidly opening bullet design to be driven fast enough to penetrate deeply, it typically has to be driven much harder. Sometimes I think that a measure of a bullets penetration would be more accurately described as a bullet having standard or anti-lock brakes? The newer bullets (regardless of caliber) are far better than their predecessors were at penetrating and expanding when timely, rather than at first contact. And then also having cores and jackets hanging together when slowed down by encountering heaving structures. That last is of no small import to hunters. Who regularly encountered core/jacket separation in bullet designs of years past. Apparently, even the cavity becoming plugged while passing through clothing or light barriers has been improved. That's why though I'm very new to the 9X19, I'm not overly concerned about running the 147 Winchester SXT? But that's just for me!

 

[flop-shank]

A bullet can expand very quickly.....

....as long as the expansion is controlled properly once it starts. And I think that's smarter than making a bullet that's harder to get started expanding.

Spot raises interesting points, and this discussion has had me thinking of something I observed while testing the .380 in Perma-Gel. The Speer .380 Gold Dot is engineered so that once it expands to about .44" the expansion all but stops. By allowing the bullet to expand to the right diameter, and no more than that, the engineers at Speer are controlling how deep the bullet goes. There is no doubt in my mind that is what they did in the info tpd223 posted where he said that the 115 gr. and 124 gr. Gold Dots penetrated to about the same depth, but the 115 gr. bullet was a little smaller in diameter. I've seen overwhelming evidence that Hornady's engineers are doing the same thing in .380.

A bullet's design, weight, and velocity must work in harmony for it to be optimally effective. That is what all of the best handgun cartridges have going for them. A great example would be the Remington 125 gr. .357 SJHP. It is, as far as fight stopping performance goes, optimal for caliber, right down to the bullet weight. Of course, one cannot ignore the human factor; not everyone will shoot their best with that load, so lighter loadings and/or different weights may be the best bet for certain individuals.

 

[tpd223]

Our issued +P 124gr Gold Dots run about 1275 through my G17, give or take for temperature or lot variations.
This round routinely shoots clean through with a torso shot on a large man.
I am not worried about insufficient penetration.

Even with the OISs we had with the 124gr +P Ranger-T (a non-bonded bullet) we saw superb expansion and penetration.

flop-shank, you deduce correctly as to what the bullet designers are up to.
You can have too much expansion, and this is normally worse than no expansion if you are in a fight.


I find the .38 Super to be rather watered down in most loadings. The 127gr +P+ Ranger-T runs like at least 100fps hotter than all of the 130gr Super rounds I have run out of a Commander.

 

[tpd223]

For a bit of fun, you can go here;

http://www.winchester.com/Products/le/Pages/ammunition-testing.aspx

Hit the "Launch Testing Comparison Tool" and you can compare the various Ranger-T loads, note that the 124gr +P, 127gr +P+, and 147gr 9mms, and the .357Sig all give about the same performance in gelatin (in fact the 9mm is often better), also note how close all of the service calibers come in actual performance.




PS; pop gun carriers should note that the .380 is NOT "almost the same as a 9mm", I'm not saying don't carry one, I'm saying don't fool yourself into thinking it's a real gun.

 

[paragon1]

For a bit of fun, you can go here;

http://www.winchester.com/Products/le/Pages/ammunition-testing.aspx

Hit the "Launch Testing Comparison Tool" and you can compare the various Ranger-T loads, note that the 124gr +P, 127gr +P+, and 147gr 9mms, and the .357Sig all give about the same performance in gelatin (in fact the 9mm is often better), also note "how close all of the service calibers come in actual performance".

Bingo! As far as a CCW SD round, Winchester has negotiated a truce in the caliber war, it doesn't matter.

LEO may have the need for a particular round because of barrier performance, but us normal folks are fine with 9mm.

As an aside, I have heard the San Jose PD is very happy with the 9mm 147 gr Ranger, and at one point was at 100% "effective" with it.

 

[Out West]

Safearm can you document your claim that agencies using 9mm 147 grn loads switch to 40 caliber? And if you can back it up, why did they change?

I tend to go with the heavy bullet. I want the penetration. Puts me in the David Sinko camp.

In the gravest extreme, I'm not going to worry much about secondary or tertiary consequences. Besides, where is the evidence that through and through shots endanger third parties? Even the civil liability case offered up by HD 38-40 doesn't change my mind. I am only going to shoot to defend my life or the life of another innocent. When I do, winning is the only outcome I care about. It doesn't make sense to compromise that outcome. Despite the fact that some civil action could result.

Check the stats on police shootings. The number of shots fired compared to shots hitting the target. On average, way more shots fired than that actual hits on target. Why aren't there more unintended consequences?

Perhaps we are overthinking.

Out West

 

[David Sinko]

What are the real world velocities of these 147 gr. bullets that supposedly are not performing? And what bullets are being used? Either the bullets aren't going fast enough or they are expanding too quickly. Simply dismissing them as too heavy to perform properly doesn't make any sense at all. I'm willing to bet that I can cast a 147 gr. bullet out of a cheap mold, give it some velocity and have it perform as well as or better than all the high tech hollow point bullets out there.

Dave Sinko

 

[Spotteddog]

The part I'm amused at, is when the Federal 147 grain +P .38 Special is being discussed. Everyone worries over the wildly effective loading liquifying their J frames. But the 147 grain 9X19 traveling at basically the same velocity (950-1000 FPS) is thought to not be able to do anything but cut a round hole? What a strange, strange world we live in master Jack?
(EDIT)
http://www.ammobank.com/cgi-bin/cshop/store/detail.tam?xax=504487&item.ctx=P38HS2G#

 

[David Sinko]

Wow, that stuff costs $77.40 a box?!?! My Academy just gave me four boxes of that same load, just to get rid of it! My goal (as soon as the weather becomes more reasonable) is to chronograph it, then pull some bullets and see what I can get by handloading it. I'll then compare it to the 147 gr. bullets in the 9mm. My only concern is that the Hydra-Shok would come apart at maximum velocity before it penetrates.

A quick glance at my Midway catalog tells me that the only two "factories" that are loading 147 gr. 9mm bullets with any good velocity are Buffalo Bore and Double Tap, with 1175 and 1135 FPS quoted. Both loads use the Gold Dot and I'd prefer either of these to any of the lighter bullet weight loads.

Dave Sinko

 

[safearm]

Out West,
Marshall and Sanow documented a number of agencies that had less than acceptable success with the 147 grain 9mm. I believe Indiana State Police was one (Sanow is from Indiana); they went to the Glock 22, and after a number of problems with the gun, went to the Glock 17. I'm not certain, but I believe they are using the either a 124 or 127 grain round.
As I said, I never used the 147 grain round in any department I was with. However, we did go through the 9mm/.38/.357 to .40 conversion. It wasn't necessarily that any of the other calibers were ineffective, it was primarily to match what the state police was carrying, i.e., if it's good enough for the SP, then it's good enough for us.
I believe is was coincidental that failures in the 147 grain 9mm began surfacing at the same time the .40 S&W came out; it was easier for police chiefs to adopt the new round, and the guns to go with it, rather than making the ammo makers come up with a better round. The new gun/ammo combination would also calm officers' fears that they were undergunned, something that wouldn't have the same impact as just replacing the old duty round with a new one.
It's ironic that some agencies that went with the .40 are now going back to the 9mm; Topeka, and Indiana SP are two. In these instances, it was specifically due to failures of the Glock 22. Both Topeka and ISP are using Glock 17s. Chicago and New York have stayed with the 9mm (Glock 17/19) without much fanfare or problem (Chicago uses the 124 grain Winchester Ranger, NY uses 124 grain GD).
Another agency opts for the .40 over the 9mm:
http://smith-wessonforum.com/smith-.../119936-another-police-agency-adopts-s-w.html
In the article, the Chief says they are behind the times because they carry the 9mm.
Quoted from "The Stopping Power Debate," by Mas Ayoob, March 2000 American Handgunner:
"FBI, which first adopted the 147 gr. subsonic 9mm, has quickly backpedaled by adopting the .45 ACP for its SWAT and HRT personnel, and adopting the .40 S&W for new agents. Almost every state police agency that got 147 gr. ammo for its 9mm pistols has switched to the .40 or the .45."