9mm / .38 Special

[BC38]

The key is to not load with position-sensitive powder in .38.

Yup, if you're going to reload use the right powder for the round.
It really isn't that complicated. Powder manufacturers provide good load data for their products.

 

[SnidelyWhiplash]

In the early '90s there was a study of police involved shootings comparing officers armed with revolvers and pistols with single-stack magazines against those armed with higher capacity mags. The study found that officers with higher capacity mags fired more rounds per engagement but were not hitting the target any more than before. The hit ratio was going the wrong way…officers were substituting more rounds fired for marksmanship.

This was and is a failure of training. Whether the same thing is happening today I don't know whether it's the same with civilians in a self-defense situation or even such studies exist.

 

[BC38]

Long ago when Jeff Cooper wrote for G&A, he related a story of a restaurant owner fighting off a strung out robber with a 357 snub, slinging 125 grain JHP's.
The owner drilled him with all six between the shirt pockets, and the perp just stood there, more or less dazed.
He reloaded his revolver, adding six more drain holes to his cardiovascular system. The perp was STILL on his feet.
He reloaded yet again, in the course of which the perp finally collapsed in a pool of his own greenish orange sauce.
(Not sure what drug does THAT)
While the overall survival rate of a drug crazed perp is diminished due to drug induced organ damage, the time it may take to join his ancestors may be extended.
While the Mozambique drill may stray a bit from the principal of firing until the threat has ended, considering the probable emotional and chemical state of the person you may have to shoot is part of this reality.
Chest, chest, head to keep from joining the dead.

And just think how much quicker the whole ordeal would have ended if the defender didn't have to reload TWICE to put the same number of rounds (with essentially the same ballistics) on the bad guy to neutralize the threat...
That's why I love my P365 with 12+1 at the ready if I need them.

 

[BC38]

In the early '90s there was a study of police involved shootings comparing officers armed with revolvers and pistols with single-stack magazines against those armed with higher capacity mags. The study found that officers with higher capacity mags fired more rounds per engagement but were not hitting the target any more than before. The hit ratio was going the wrong way…officers were substituting more rounds fired for marksmanship.

This was and is a failure of training. Whether the same thing is happening today I don't know whether it's the same with civilians in a self-defense situation or even such studies exist.

...and yet we have keyboard commandos who have NEVER been involved in any kind of actual armed confrontation who still arrogantly presume that THEY are better trained and more capable than the LEOs who were part of these studies.

Amazing, isn't it?

 

[ArchAngelCD]

First of all I never said 5 rounds of .38 Special would have done better than the 9mm. I was only commenting one what was being discussed and did say I don't know if it was a one time event.

This discussion is starting to heat up a bit, please tone it down. I would hate to have to close a very good thread.
Thank you...

 

[BC38]

First of all I never said 5 rounds of .38 Special would have done better than the 9mm. I was only commenting one what was being discussed and did say I don't know if it was a one time event.

This discussion is starting to heat up a bit, please tone it down. I would hate to have to close a very good thread.
Thank you...

My apologies if I have given offense.

The point of relating your anecdote seemed to be alluding to the ineffectiveness of 9mm - because someone was able to take 11 rounds of 9mm and still keep coming.

In the context pf this debate, I took that to have been presented as evidence of the superiority of the 38 special - or the inferiority of 9mm.

If I misinterpreted the point that you were trying to make, then my sincere apologies. No need to squash the thread.

 

[BC38]

As a newer shooter, I've never seen a p345 in person, they look like bad *** little guns, my american in .45 isn't quite a tack driver, but my shield45 is my dedicated carry because of it's accuracy compared to any of the micro 9s I've shot. Not a knock on 9mm, I love my full size 9s, but for carry, i like my .45acp much better.

I have a P95 in 45ACP, just a little smaller and lighter than the P345.
But when I want to carry a 45ACP my Taurus PT145 gets the nod.
Its more compact, weighs less and carries 2 more rounds than the P95.

 

[Nevada Ed]

Originally Posted by smoothshooter View Post
The key is to not load with position-sensitive powder in .38.

I would like to hear more about the better powders that are not position sensitive, in the 38 special.
Maybe on a new thread?

I load about a dozen powders, and would like some info, if possible?

 

[WR Moore]

Let us return to post 53 and the biker. I do believe that gent was famous in the 1970's when he was shot at a Illinois State Police roadblock using their first in the nation issue S&W 39s. He became the poster child for the "9 mm is inadequate" trope. As it happens, a class I took looked very carefully at this incident.

First and foremost, around 27-28 of those 9 mm wounds apparently were what the medical folks call adynamic. That is, they did not, could not contribute to death. Without seeing wound tracks, many seemed to be bandaid/antibiotic injuries. Secondly, at that time ISP had no provision for spare ammunition on the trooper. There were several (4-5 troopers?) engaging said felon at the same time. Finally, the shotgun slug that ended the fracas was the second slug to hit him. The first, because of his body position, entered the back, deflected from the rib cage and exited without entering the body cavity.

Given the shot placement, I have great doubts that any other handgun caliber would have done better. OBTW, he had drugs in his system.

To quote a distinguished member of the forum: "Shot placement is king, (adequate) penetration is queen, all the reset is angels dancing on the head of a pin."

 

[rockquarry]

Originally Posted by smoothshooter View Post
The key is to not load with position-sensitive powder in .38.

I would like to hear more about the better powders that are not position sensitive, in the 38 special.
Maybe on a new thread?

I load about a dozen powders, and would like some info, if possible?

I'm also curious; I've never heard anything regarding position-sensitive handgun cartridge powders, but I certainly haven't tried them all. If there is such a thing, I'd certainly avoid those powders. We need a list.

 

[alwslate]

In the .38 spl pretty much all powders are position sensitive. Easy to verify with a chronograph. But...some are more position sensitive than others. In my experience one of the worst is Unique. That's one of the reasons I no longer use it. Fine grain ball powders usually are less position than other powders.

 

[Nevada Ed]

If you can look at a
Sierra 110
Old Gold Dot 125
new Gold Dot 135
the newest 130 HST;

you will see four different types of JHP designs for the 38 special SD loads.

Barrel length and fps is needed to match the bullets, for them to work.

 

[Heinz]

The side that won that war was equipped with the 45 ACP. The 9MM was on the losing side.

For two world wars. When we went to 5.56 and 9mm, we started having problems. More rounds in the magazine does not aways make for better results down range.

If 8 Rounds of a 45 ACP will not do the job, you should have brought an M1

 

[SnidelyWhiplash]

If 8 Rounds of a 45 ACP will not do the job, you should have brought an M1

When I was a LEO and issued a revolver and two speed loaders, my attitude was that if I couldn't solve a problem with eighteen rounds...

1) I can't hit what I'm aiming at;
2) the target is behind hard cover and I shouldn't be wasting ammo;
3) I'm in doo-doo so deep no handgun is going to get me out of it.

 

[Luke Duke]

As a newer shooter, I've never seen a p345 in person, they look like bad *** little guns, my american in .45 isn't quite a tack driver, but my shield45 is my dedicated carry because of it's accuracy compared to any of the micro 9s I've shot. Not a knock on 9mm, I love my full size 9s, but for carry, i like my .45acp much better.

Mine was the last issue 2013. Don't stray from the "Lords Caliber" 230 Gr 800 fps with any flavor of bullet and it just shoots great.

 

[smithra_66]

I'm not sure exactly what data sources you've been looking at, but when you compare the Ballistics 101 webpage data for the two cartridges, there doesn't appear to be any significant advantage for the 38 special.

38 Special Ballistics Chart | Ballistics 101

vs the 9mm
9mm Ballistics Chart | Ballistics 101

I guess that if you want to include "cowboy loads" for the 38 special, it has a little wider range and more versatility. However, in practical terms, the loads for both rounds pretty much fall within the same envelope - ranging from around 250 ft/lbs ME to topping out at about 500 ft/lbs ME.

I guess you can give a slight advantage to the 38 on the basis that it can be down-loaded to under 200 ft/lbs ME. While that has some benefits for range days, for any kind of social work, that so-called advantage is moot.

Don't get me wrong, I love and reload and both rounds. It just seems to me that, overall, the packaging and equal potency of 9mm semi-autos gives them an advantage over a 38 wheel gun for most applications.

A always, your opinion may differ and YMMV.

You can load the 38 special anywhere from puffer loads used in Cowboy Action which would not work in a 9mm semi auto (125 gr. bullets going 500 fps), all the way up to Keith 173 gr. SWC traveling at 1250+ fps.

That's a much wider range than 9mm has. The 38 is basically a 357 Magnum with a bit more room to hang a long bullet out of the case. The 9mm suffers from a very tiny case with little powder capacity, and it has to operate within a small window because of the platform it is most commonly launched from.

The 38 is also a super black powder cartridge. That simply wouldn't work in a 9mm

The 38 can also be loaded with flush seated wadcutters since it has plenty of case capacity and these loads turn a good revolver into a top class bullseye gun.

You can also shoot the 38 spl with wax bullets powered by just the primer in a manually operated gun like a revolver, unlike the 9mm.

Also birdshot can be loaded, which would never feed in a semi.

The 38 spl is orders of magnitude more versatile than the 9mm Luger.

 

[LoboGunLeather]

But what about when I have to shoot a charging bear while walking my dog in the park?

Submitted with tongue firmly in cheek.

 

[BC38]

Let us return to post 53 and the biker. I do believe that gent was famous in the 1970's when he was shot at a Illinois State Police roadblock using their first in the nation issue S&W 39s. He became the poster child for the "9 mm is inadequate" trope. As it happens, a class I took looked very carefully at this incident.

First and foremost, around 27-28 of those 9 mm wounds apparently were what the medical folks call adynamic. That is, they did not, could not contribute to death. Without seeing wound tracks, many seemed to be bandaid/antibiotic injuries. Secondly, at that time ISP had no provision for spare ammunition on the trooper. There were several (4-5 troopers?) engaging said felon at the same time. Finally, the shotgun slug that ended the fracas was the second slug to hit him. The first, because of his body position, entered the back, deflected from the rib cage and exited without entering the body cavity.

Given the shot placement, I have great doubts that any other handgun caliber would have done better. OBTW, he had drugs in his system.

To quote a distinguished member of the forum: "Shot placement is king, (adequate) penetration is queen, all the reset is angels dancing on the head of a pin."

A 38 special loaded like those gents named Keith, Skelton, Bryce loaded them. Kinda heavy and kind of fast.

I have serious disbelief that a 158 to 170 grain SWC loaded at 1000fps or more would have simply deflected like that 9mm

Ummm, you might want to re-read the post you quoted. Particularly the bolded and underlined part above.

The round that was described as deflecting off the suspect's ribs was a 12-guage slug NOT a 9mm.

Do you really think that a Keith or Skeeter 38 Special load would have done better than a 12-guage slug with the same shot placement? Seems highly unlikely to me...

 

[gwpercle]

As you get older (60 years +) the beauty and value of the 38 special become apparent ... You don't have to chase the empty brass all over the shooting range and you don't have to bend over and pick each one up !
You will reach an age when bending over and picking up lots of small objects becomes painfull ... if your eyesight starts to "age" you become hard of seeing and can't see the danged things .
The lovely 38 revolver ... keeps your brass in a nice neat compartment for you ...
I love the 38 Special !
The 9mm Luger is just a little Stinker !
Gary

 

[BC38]

As you get older (60 years +) the beauty and value of the 38 special become apparent ... You don't have to chase the empty brass all over the shooting range and you don't have to bend over and pick each one up !
You will reach an age when bending over and picking up lots of small objects becomes painfull ... if your eyesight starts to "age" you become hard of seeing and can't see the danged things .
The lovely 38 revolver ... keeps your brass in a nice neat compartment for you ...
I love the 38 Special !
The 9mm Luger is just a little Stinker !
Gary

Now THERE is a real advantage to the 38 special that I can endorse. Picking up brass is a pain in the back!
On the other hand, I already have around 5,000-10,000 pieces of 9mm brass, so it is getting to the point that it almost isn't worth the effort to pick it up - almost.
For shooting 9mm I prefer to do it at an indoor range, just because it is so much easier to sweep the brass into a pile to pick it all up at one time in one spot - vs picking it up a piece at a time. I usually bring home more than I shot too.