I pulled this box out of the trash bin at the Ft Bliss Rod & Gun Club. It's Winchester, black on white box, with the caliber shown as 9mm NATO. In the small print on the box it says "These cartridges are loaded to higher velocities and pressures than 9mm luger cartridges. Average pressure is 10% higher than 9mm Luger cartridges". Anybody know anything about this stuff? Wonder how it got into the trash can of a recreational shooting range.
9mm NATO?
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JJEH
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You can buy this stuff everywhere online... same with the 5.56 green tip rounds... or LE ammo...
S&W forever
Member
Its +P FMJ 9mm ammo with crimped primer. SMG loves them
rromeo
Member
My WalMart sells it.
Pigirondan
Member
I pick up that very same ammo whenever I can. Works fine in my Glock 17. IMO, probably the best range ammo there is. Always functions, not too hot and good accuracy. YMMV
I buy that ammo from the Academy Sports off of Sunland Park on the west side of El Paso. It is good stuff at about $14.00 a box.
baccusboy
Member
It's loaded 10% hotter than standard US 9mm ammo, give or take.
You can often find it at SGAmmo.com | Family Owned and Operated, Stillwater Oklahoma . I have purchased from them, and they are excellent/fast.
You can often find it at SGAmmo.com | Family Owned and Operated, Stillwater Oklahoma . I have purchased from them, and they are excellent/fast.
NicholasDM
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It's basic NATO ammo, also known in the US as +P. You might or might not find the primer crimped; I've seen both. It tends to be a little more expensive and can be found most places ammo is sold.
Steve C
Member
One must be careful in equating velocity to pressure as there is no direct correlation except with larger amounts of the same powder. You really have no idea what the pressure is of the round by it simply being marked with the NATO cross. IMO the higher pressure and velocity statements regarding this ammo is common sales puffery.
According to the published ballistics for the ammo at Midway.com the velocity of the Winchester NATO 124gr FMJ is only 1,140 fps which in itself doesn't indicate a +P level as other Winchester loads of the same bullet weight have higher velocities at 1,180 fps and are "standard pressure" loads.
There is a NATO spec for 9mm but many countries in NATO load their rounds differently or have a variety of loads some of which can be much higher pressure than what NATO (the organization) specifies.
"The NATO standard specification calls for a 7.45 g full-jacketed bullet loaded to deliver a velocity of 396m/s, mean pressure to be 2050 kg/cm2* and the Accuracy Figure ot Merit 76 mm at 50 m. " Source is Janes Small Arms and Ammunition.
If you do the metric to English conversions of the specs you find that it is 7.45g = 115 gr, 396m/s =1,299 fps, 2050 kg/cm^2 = 29157.85 PSI. Since SAAMI maximum standard pressure for the 9mm is 35,000 psi NATO specifications are well below SAAMI. The velocity is rather high for a handgun but the barrel length to be used is unspecified and likely sub MG length maybe 2X handgun length or more.
According to the published ballistics for the ammo at Midway.com the velocity of the Winchester NATO 124gr FMJ is only 1,140 fps which in itself doesn't indicate a +P level as other Winchester loads of the same bullet weight have higher velocities at 1,180 fps and are "standard pressure" loads.
There is a NATO spec for 9mm but many countries in NATO load their rounds differently or have a variety of loads some of which can be much higher pressure than what NATO (the organization) specifies.
"The NATO standard specification calls for a 7.45 g full-jacketed bullet loaded to deliver a velocity of 396m/s, mean pressure to be 2050 kg/cm2* and the Accuracy Figure ot Merit 76 mm at 50 m. " Source is Janes Small Arms and Ammunition.
If you do the metric to English conversions of the specs you find that it is 7.45g = 115 gr, 396m/s =1,299 fps, 2050 kg/cm^2 = 29157.85 PSI. Since SAAMI maximum standard pressure for the 9mm is 35,000 psi NATO specifications are well below SAAMI. The velocity is rather high for a handgun but the barrel length to be used is unspecified and likely sub MG length maybe 2X handgun length or more.
Some info I dug out of the NATO EPVAT testing document...
EPVAT is an abbreviation for "Electronic Pressure Velocity and Action Time". This is a comprehensive procedure for testing ammunition using state-of-the-art instruments and computers
....
STANAG 4090 is the document that describes for 9mm, "
The minimum proof and performance requirements for small arms ammunition of NATO calibres".
I believe it states that the service operating pressure is 36,550 psi and the proof load is 45,687 psi.
EPVAT is an abbreviation for "Electronic Pressure Velocity and Action Time". This is a comprehensive procedure for testing ammunition using state-of-the-art instruments and computers
....
STANAG 4090 is the document that describes for 9mm, "
The minimum proof and performance requirements for small arms ammunition of NATO calibres".
I believe it states that the service operating pressure is 36,550 psi and the proof load is 45,687 psi.
CTG_COLLECTOR
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All NATO ammo must meet NATO STANAG standards and are tested yearly in order to meet those strict STANAG standards.
http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2007smallarms/5_9_07/Geddes_1120am.pdf
The U.S. has never produced or fielded a M882 9x19mm 115FMJ NATO load, they have all been 124FMJ's as produced by WCC or Federal.
Darkenfast
Member
There's a lot of confusion on the internet about this load, partly because of varying standards and ways of measurement, and partly because of armchair commandos posting garbage (not in this thread!). After I bought some of this load I waded through a bunch of stuff online and I have distilled the following.
As noted above, 9mm NATO pressure standards are 10% higher than SAAMI standards. This puts the load somewhere between regular 9mm and +P. Something to note however, is that 9mm in the U.S. has generally been loaded slightly lighter than other countries. I believe that SAAMI has both average and maximum pressures, but perhaps someone else can explain that.
Velocities can be measured in different ways: test barrels, various pistols, etc. The test barrel velocity for the 9mm NATO is (IIRC), 1240fps. This gives rise to some of the "this stuff is really hot!" comments. Velocities from longer barreled nines such as the BHP and Beretta M-9 run about 1180-1190. As a matter of comparison, E.P. White lab testing of a P-38 and German military pistol loads after WW2 showed velocities just over 1200, in other words, about the same.
Hope this helps!
As noted above, 9mm NATO pressure standards are 10% higher than SAAMI standards. This puts the load somewhere between regular 9mm and +P. Something to note however, is that 9mm in the U.S. has generally been loaded slightly lighter than other countries. I believe that SAAMI has both average and maximum pressures, but perhaps someone else can explain that.
Velocities can be measured in different ways: test barrels, various pistols, etc. The test barrel velocity for the 9mm NATO is (IIRC), 1240fps. This gives rise to some of the "this stuff is really hot!" comments. Velocities from longer barreled nines such as the BHP and Beretta M-9 run about 1180-1190. As a matter of comparison, E.P. White lab testing of a P-38 and German military pistol loads after WW2 showed velocities just over 1200, in other words, about the same.
Hope this helps!
M_E_
Member
There IS a NATO pressure spec. It is 36,500 PSI.
Std 35,000 psi
NATO 36,500 psi
+P 38,500 psi
+P+ Over 38,500
PROOF rounds 42,000 to 45,000 PSI
There is NO bullet weight noted for the NATO loads but today's std seems to be a 124 gr bullet.
There ya go. Interesting to know that the 9X19 proof rounds are the same as the 357 Sig pressures.
Std 35,000 psi
NATO 36,500 psi
+P 38,500 psi
+P+ Over 38,500
PROOF rounds 42,000 to 45,000 PSI
There is NO bullet weight noted for the NATO loads but today's std seems to be a 124 gr bullet.
There ya go. Interesting to know that the 9X19 proof rounds are the same as the 357 Sig pressures.
mkk41
US Veteran
martybee
Member
Just bought a box of 50-QZI 9mm 123gn. FMJ RN From Walmart $12.97.
It conforms to NATO Spec's. Made in Turkey. Brass case, copper jacket.
It looks good! Can't wait to try it. I believe it's loaded about 6% higher than US SAAMI specifications. or a little under +P .
mb
It conforms to NATO Spec's. Made in Turkey. Brass case, copper jacket.
It looks good! Can't wait to try it. I believe it's loaded about 6% higher than US SAAMI specifications. or a little under +P .
mb
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All 9mm ammo with the Nato head stamp is not loaded to the same
velocity. I have some Winchester from 88 that chronos at slightly
over 1200 fps out of my Browning HP. I have some FNM (Portuguese)
that only runs 1145 fps out of the same gun. I have some Danish
Nato marked 115 gr that is slower than US 124 gr, about 1175 fps. If
you have a chronograph please report back on the velocity of your
Turkish ammo.
velocity. I have some Winchester from 88 that chronos at slightly
over 1200 fps out of my Browning HP. I have some FNM (Portuguese)
that only runs 1145 fps out of the same gun. I have some Danish
Nato marked 115 gr that is slower than US 124 gr, about 1175 fps. If
you have a chronograph please report back on the velocity of your
Turkish ammo.
This thread is the first time in my life I have ever seen "faster," "hotter," and "quicker" used in the same sentence as "NATO."
Wait a second, we are talking about ammunition!
Wait a second, we are talking about ammunition!
martybee
Member
I don't have a chronograph but according to the spec's provided by: ZQI, velocity is: 1214 fps at 52 ft.
mb
Its good ammo. Shoots well and being 124 grain and only a hair bit more expensive than Blazer 115 grain per box you would be crazy not to use it. I like it, I shoot it and thats all I have to say about it.
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martybee
Member
The primers in these cartridges appear to be the typical NATO crimped, and sealed with what looks like a green epoxy like substance. If you are a reloader, be advised before buying.
mb
mb
I've bought and fired the Winchester version. It was about $2 per box more expensive in the 50 round boxes. No issues. It felt a little stronger than the American Eagle 124 gr.
I have a box of the ZQI white box, but have not fired it. It was several $ more expensive. I have seen a new multi-color box format at WM for ZQI, but have not bought/fired that yet.
I have a box of the ZQI white box, but have not fired it. It was several $ more expensive. I have seen a new multi-color box format at WM for ZQI, but have not bought/fired that yet.
martybee
Member
here is an image for the ZQI 9mm NATO Ammo Walmart is selling.
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I bought a box of the "new" ZQI 9mm. It has a different UPC code, is $12 as opposed to $20, and not having fired it, can't say more.
My WM guy says reports from the usual suspects are that it is good stuff.
123 gr costs less than 115gr WWB? I'll try some.
My WM guy says reports from the usual suspects are that it is good stuff.
123 gr costs less than 115gr WWB? I'll try some.
It looks like quality ammo in the pics but it does not actually have
the Nato cross on the headstamp. The closest WM to my house had
zero 9mm ammo the last time I was in there. If I get a chance I'm
going to buy some and chronograph it. I've got plenty but it's hard to
pass up a chance to buy more at a good price.
the Nato cross on the headstamp. The closest WM to my house had
zero 9mm ammo the last time I was in there. If I get a chance I'm
going to buy some and chronograph it. I've got plenty but it's hard to
pass up a chance to buy more at a good price.
Coaltminer
Member
I use 124 gr. plated bullets for all my 9mm reloads, use about max loads listed in my manuals of 231 in both my 9c and 5904. They both seem to like them. What surprised me is that I had a Baby Eagle that wouldn't run Federal 147 gr. match ammo, lots of FTF's, not a problem in the other 2 guns I mentioned. A little off track, annoyed at thread drift? Well, I had good intentions!
I remember after WW2 the GI bring back Luger were being blown up by the sub machine gun ammo they brought with them.
wyccad915
Member
I'm gonna get some. I'm not really close to that one anymore though so it's a drive.
In general Lugers need a slightly higher velocity than found in US manufactured 9 mm (115 or 124 grain) in order to overcome the resistance of the toggle. I have experimented with a number of loads (under +p formally) in order to obtain consistent loading with a 1918 P08, and have found that 1250 to 1300 fps works every time. Dave_n
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Not a big deal. It is loaded like 9mm should be loaded. It is generally available to the public, as it should be, and it is not restricted. As to the pressure, that is no big deal either, if you have a quality pistol. By the way, the +P+ ammo the companies sell to LE agencies will generally have higher pressure than 9mm NATO. Selling to LE only is a POLICY of the manufacturer, and is NOT because of some law. In my experience, 9mm NATO, +P or +P+ simply make the pistols work better. No lazy ejection, etc. Snap some up and give it a try. You will get spoiled and want to shoot it all the time.
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