A 9mm Load Question

[Green Frog]

Well, I finally took the time to dig out the box of 9mm bullets Dad had stashed, and as usual I was only partially right. The label on the box shows they are from American Bullets. They are 125 grain cast RN bullets that have a single grease groove full of a blue lube that looks kind of like the carnauba based lubes I have seen, and the advertised diameter is .355” which is pretty close to what I get with my mics.

I also found a goodly amount of 231, so it looks like as soon as I can sort out and clean a supply of brass I’ll probably load up a test batch of these with what seems a reliable charge of 4.0 gr of 231 behind these bullets and seat to the same COAL as my factory RN ammo and finish off with a taper crimp. Does this sound like a plan?

Froggie

 

[mtgianni]

Yes assuming the nose length is similar with the factory rounds. What you want is the brass determining the headspace by having the same trim length. So the bullet "shoulder" should not extend past the case nor should it be overly deep. That might mean a die adjustment of 1/2-1/3 turn to get there from factory.

 

[DeplorabusUnum]

I shoot some 120 gr. powder coated cast lead truncated cone with W231 out of a glock 19 with 4" barrel.

I've chronographed loads from 3.6 to 4.4 of W231.

4.0 grains has by far the lowest extreme spread and standard deviation, and is the most accurate in my Glock. Those shoot at 997 ft/s with a spread of only 16 ft/s. and standard deviation of 7

The 3.6 grain load was too weak to cycle my slide reliably.

The 4.4 load only got to 1086 ft/s and accuracy went out the window

You would probably get similar performance in your model 39 from your bullets. I think 4.0 grains is a great place to start.

 

[pistolpete10]

I shot 1000 cast 125 RN loaded with Unique, They shot fine but no better than plated 124s. I have tried 125 Cast SWC in the 9mm, don't remember the load, I have 500 more 125 SWC for testing, have a new DW Valkyrie Commander that I hope is more accurate than my 9mm Citadel. The only 9MM I have that didn't like cast is my LC9. The Citadel and 92FS work fine with cast. You may have some feeding problems with the SWC, My 2 Wilson mags won't feed them. Metalforms work fine.

 

[Green Frog]

Thanks DeplorabusUnum and pistolpete10, this is exactly what I wanted, "this is what happened when I..." instead of "you ought to try..." (that they've never tried themselves.)

It looks like the 4.0 grains of 231 will be a good starting point as will a moderate load of Unique (care to share a weight here or by PM, pistolpete10?) I just discovered a stash of 231/HP38, so I'll probably be using that first since I've got more of that than Unique. I've got a fair supply of the 125 gr LRNs, but if somebody were to offer me some JHPs or SWCs in the same weight class, I'd probably go for them too.

Thanks again guys!
Froggie

 

[Dragonwing]

Another vote for W231 form me. I use it for 9mm, 45acp and 44mag. It's proven in my loads to give me consistent measured loads from my RCBS P2000 and very accurate on target. It's also an economical powder, with fewer grains than a lot of other powders. Mind you that I am using jackets bullets and not cast lead.

 

[rwsmith]

My go to load...

9mm 124 grain Hi tek coated SWCs from Missouri Bullets with around 3.8 to 4.5 grains of 231 has been my go to load for a long time.

 

[DeplorabusUnum]

Thanks DeplorabusUnum and pistolpete10, this is exactly what I wanted, "this is what happened when I..." instead of "you ought to try..." (that they've never tried themselves.)

It looks like the 4.0 grains of 231 will be a good starting point as will a moderate load of Unique (care to share a weight here or by PM, pistolpete10?) I just discovered a stash of 231/HP38, so I'll probably be using that first since I've got more of that than Unique. I've got a fair supply of the 125 gr LRNs, but if somebody were to offer me some JHPs or SWCs in the same weight class, I'd probably go for them too.

Thanks again guys!
Froggie

If you're interested in using Unique, I've tested loads of 124 gr FMJ RN. 4.5 gr of Unique gets me almost identical velocity as the 4.0 gr of W321 (990-1000 ft/s). 4.7 gr gets up to 1020 ft/s. Those are good target loads, but fall short of typical self defense loads.

Some people like to practice with loads that closely match the self defense ammo they carry. I've tested five of those, and they all chrono at an average of 1145 ft/s from my Glock. I tested Hornady XTP, Federal HST, Remington Golden Sabre, Speer Gold Dot, and Fiocchi XTP. Of those, the Gold Dot was by far the most consistent velocity wise, and most accurate. It did have the lowest velocity at 1110 ft/s. What load you choose depends on whether you're after velocity/stopping power, or punching holes in paper.

 

[Green Frog]

Well, with that 4.0 gr HP38/231 charge as a starting point, I discovered I had a fixed rotor for an old Pacific powder measure that dropped 4.1 gr consistently. So I loaded up 20 rounds with that charge and the 125 gr LRN cast bullets and took the out to the range today for function fire. I had one FTF, the last round in a newly acquired but used factory mag. Everything else went perfectly. I’ll examine the feed lips (the nose jammed into the top edge of the chamber) but meanwhile I think I’ll load a full box of 100 so I’ll have enough for more extensive testing since these seem promising.

Stay tuned!
Froggie

 

[Green Frog]

Well, I’m actually dropping about 4.05 grains of 231. My Franken-Smith is cycling well with this load, but my group is a little wide (The gun? Me?) but those tiny little fixed sights are a challenge anyway.

Next step will be to cast up a bunch of 125 gr truncated cone bullets and see how “Frankie” likes them.

Froggie

 

[rockquarry]

As I was going through the flotsam and jetsam in the reloading area, I found a box of 500 rounds or .356" lead 125 gr SWCs that my dad apparently bought 20+ years ago to reload for his Model 39-2. With the current paucity of factory ammo, I'd probably be well advised to at least start thinking about reloading for my Franken-Smith.

I went to the MD Smith site and of the powders I have in good supply he suggests loads of 4.7 grains of Bullseye, 6.0 grains of Unique or 4.0 grains of 231. Since I've never loaded a single round of 9mm for this or any other pistol with these or any other powder, I thought I would ask those of you who have more experience with this specific bullet in the 39 series of gun, have you had good results or otherwise with any of these three powders and this bullet type? I don't need to hear about your 149 grain jacketed bullets with Super TNT brand powder, etc. I'm committed in this day and age to this bullet with one of these specific powders.

Can any of you give me any suggestions from your own experiences?

Thanks in advance,
Green Frog

I don't know what a Franken-Smith is nor do I know anything about an MD Smith site, but I've used many different cast bullet designs of different alloys and diameters in a variety of 9mm pistols for well over thirty years.

A true .356" bullet will work in a 9mm pistol if the alloy will allow obturation of the bullet based on the powder and charge weight you are using. If not, a fairly soft bullet of larger diameter (.357" or .358") will work much better and can be very accurate and you will not experience bore leading. I'm speaking here of conventionally sized and lubricated cast bullets, not painted, plated, coated or jacketed.

This takes patience and experimentation but the end result is worth the effort. Look at some load manuals, Lyman for sure. Avoid YouTube and unqualified Internet experts. There are no shortcuts and I'm no expert.

If you really want your .356" bullets to work, try lots of different loads (and powders if you have them). Test your loads from a benchrest at 25 yards to weed out the worthless ones, checking for leading and accuracy all the while. Good luck-

 

[max503]

I use 231 in the 9mm. Some lead bullets, if driven too fast will lead like crazy.

Nuthin' a little Chore Boy can't remedy.

 

[Sevens]

On a good day one can learn something, hopefully...?

I always though the Model 39 was an all steel frame: now I learn that they made BOTH steel & alloy frames!

Just for the sake of info... while it is true that the 39 was made with a steel frame, there were under 950 of them ever made. They are rare, sought after and valuable.

Less than a thousand steel frame but total 39/39-2 production ran to over 347,000 units, so says Mr. Jinks.

The Model 44 wasn’t steel frame, it was a rare early single action only and legend says that only 10 units were made.

 

[Dragonwing]

I've used W231 for my 9mm, 45CAP and 44mag target loads. It gives me excellent accuracy in all 3 calibers. I'm sitting on 4.0 grs as well for my 9mm. I always start a load below mid range charges and load up to just below maximum loads. 4grs of W231 was the most accurate load for my 9mms, out of my Glock 19 and my Sig P938. It's an economical powder with fewer grains per round than some other powders and being a ball powder it gives me consistently accurate loads out of my RCBS Pro 2000.

 

[Green Frog]

Wow, this is what happens when I reopen an old thread!

To rockquarry, I apply the term “Franken-Smith” to the pistol I assembled for myself from parts. As Sevens states, although steel frame Model 39s exist, they are exceedingly rare. I wanted one for endurance’ sake, so I did the next best thing and resorted to a stainless frame from a Model 639. I used a blued slide (actually a couple of them) to put together packages to suit the moment and my whim, hence the “Franken-“ reference alluding to Shelley’s monster.

Back to the intent of this thread, the hard cast RN bullets with a single groove filled with a hard blue lube seem to be performing well over 4.05 gr of 231, this being lit by some 30+ year old Federal #100 primers we set aside back then because the boxes had gotten damp and they were kinda iffy back then. They’re all dry now and seem to work well.

As for leading, I don’t think I’m getting any (or at least not enough to worry about) but I plan to tear down “Frankie” later today and clean him, so I’ll check then.

As others have said, 231 seems to present a good all around possibility for these loads; accurate, dependable and economical... and the best part is that I have a good supply of it!

The world is looking pretty good today.
Froggie

 

[Green Frog]

PS to rockquarry: the MD Smith website to which I refer is a large one that has separate pages for just about every caliber you can imagine. He lists several different bullets (usually some lead and some jacketed) and different powders from different manufacturers. It’s a very useful site and I check there whenever I’m starting or renewing loading for a specific caliber.

Froggie

 

[rockquarry]

231 seems to work well in many 9mm applications as do Bullseye and Unique. However, there are many powders not often mentioned or used that I have had at least limited success with from an accuracy perspective.

Probably none of these can be found at the moment on store shelves, but sometimes we have unused containers purchased years ago for some now forgotten handloading project(s). These include Herco, HS-6, the discontinued IMR7625 and IMR4756, Blue Dot, AA#s 2 &7, Titegroup, Power Pistol, and maybe a couple of others.

While few of these are as versatile as 231, Bullseye, and Unique, they are always worth a try if you have them on hand and they are compatible with the bullet your are using.