A brief history lesson, please...

[scwv67]

Maybe a dumb question, but has anyone started a petition to S&W showing the interest in a continued 3rd gen market? I mean there are petitions for just about anything out there and some business have taken those petitions into consideration, or we can be like MDA/ Bloomberg and bully S&W into bringing back the 3rd gens.

I hear you.

For whatever good it might do, when I did call a couple weeks back regarding my 4506, I made a point of telling the CS rep how many 3rd Gens. I've bought and that I don't own a single M&P.

Since they've made special runs of 3rd Gens for LE agencies, I've wondered what a minimum order would be to get that done and if we have enough members to make a group buy.

However, methinks getting a consensus among members as to just what pistol to buy and exactly how it would be spec'd would be like herding cats.

ETA: FWIW, I'd pony up for a new build 845 in Melonite.

 

[k22fan]

25 Words of Amateur Speculation

S&W is a subcontract manufacturer of precision metal parts including 1911 frames. They just decided to assemble some of the frames they were already making.

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Iggy beat me to it and with a more complete answer, but he used 68 words. NAUGHTY BAD Iggy!!

Edit to ask:

S&W [...] decided to choke off the little guys [...]

Are you sure S&W quit selling 1911 frames to smaller manufacturers? I've read S&W remains one of the largest of the very few manufacturers of 1911 frames.

 

[shawn mccarver]

I wonder if someone, who was around and paying a whole lot more attention than I was at the time, can please explain to me in 25 words or less what motivated S&W to get into producing all-metal 1911 pistols at a time (2004-2005) when everything else they were making had gone or was going to plastic? There has got to be more to the story than just the sudden desire to copy other handgun manufacturers or the sudden realization that in the new age of plastic handguns, the 1911 could be a big profit maker catering to those dinosaur folks who still wanted all-metal handguns.

Anybody want to take that question?

The 1911 market had exploded, and S&W saw a chance to get in on the action.

If suddenly, the market exploded for all steel duty pistols priced at $1,000.00, they would likely reintroduce the 3rd Gen guns. But, don't hold your breath.

 

[Iggy]

S&W is a subcontract manufacturer of precision metal parts including 1911 frames. They just decided to assemble some of the frames they were already making.

-------------------------------------------------------------------


Iggy beat me to it and with a more complete answer, but he used 68 words. NAUGHTY BAD Iggy!!

Edit to ask:



Are you sure S&W quit selling 1911 frames to smaller manufacturers? I've read S&W remains one of the largest of the very few manufacturers of 1911 frames.

I sincerely and abjectly apologize for my excessive verbosity..

Small guys like Dan Wesson, Caspian and maybe even Kimber had to find another source for frames for a while at least.

Some went to Ruger, then Ruger got in the act.

That was years ago, I don't know who sells what to who now.

 

[Ross3914]

Think of it like cars.

The 3rd Gen S&W's were the Crown Vic. Good, solid performer, but getting harder to compete against newer entries from it's competitors.

The 1911's were the SUV/truck. SUV/truck sales skyrocketed and everyone jumped on the bandwagon. Ford still easily sells every F-150 they make at $40K. Toyota has no problem doing the same with their trucks at a similar price.

It's sort of a different segment, and I don't think they're directly related to each other. I don't think S&W stopped selling third-gen autos because they moved to 1911's. I think they saw that the "Crown Vic" wasn't going to stay on top much longer in LE sales and they needed to offer a "modern" product to that market. The M&P was geared to that.

The 1911 decision was likely based on the fact that everyone else was getting in on it. There were darn few expanding segments of the firearms industry. Pretty much all the companies have to fight over the same customers, with similar products, so when a segment appears, or expands, like 1911's or AR's, you have to move on it.

I don't think the two moves were directly linked. I think it does show a flexibility, not only in S&W, but also in it's major competitors, that hasn't existed in the past. The current gun companies are really doing a pretty good job overall.

ETA: Way more than 25 words, but oh well..lol

 

[gwpercle]

A manufacturer can sell every 1911 they can make. Dinosaurs buy them all up. Now it's just up to the non-dinosaurs to discover why they sell so well.
Maybe we know something you haven't figured out just yet.
Proud to own a 1911 and know why I like it.

 

[classic bob]

DINOSAUR???

I've never owned a plastic pistol. I don't own one now and I never will own one in the future!! I like all metal guns and I love 1911s. I own four of those. If that makes me a dinosaur, well then so be it.

 

[Laketime]

I sincerely and abjectly apologize for my excessive verbosity..

Small guys like Dan Wesson, Caspian and maybe even Kimber had to find another source for frames for a while at least.

Some went to Ruger, then Ruger got in the act.

That was years ago, I don't know who sells what to who now.

Kimber doesn't outsource frames. In fact Wilson got their frames from kimber , before Kimber began to produce their own line of 1911's

 

[k22fan]

Caspian got into the market by selling frames for project 1911s. Their frames had a good reputation. The rumor or presumption was that they made them. Did they?

 

[Iggy]

They may now.

 

[Bartman3562]

Read the government is looking for a new 9mm pistol. From what I have read, S&W could enter the 5906TSW with build in rail and it would meet all the requirements. Surely smith can make them cheaper and better than Baretta does.

 

[cpeblue]

Read the government is looking for a new 9mm pistol. From what I have read, S&W could enter the 5906TSW with build in rail and it would meet all the requirements. Surely smith can make them cheaper and better than Baretta does.

Spend some time with a Beretta 92fs and you'll find it's a tough one to beat. Being a 3rd gen nut I would say a 5904tsw until you get to field stripping . I wonder how many slide locks would be lost? Not to mention broken ejectors and the other two levers . I think the 92 will be with our military for a while longer. Didn't they just order another 350,000 about 3 years ago?

 

[Jaymo]

I have no more trouble stripping/reassembling 3rd gen Smiths than I do any other auto.

Training is the solution.

The Beretta is good, but the Smith is better.
It's more durable, it fits different sized hands better, and the different grips make it fit even more.
Plus, the 5906 will feed empty brass.
Extreme feed reliability is a good thing.

 

[Jaymo]

They wanted to be able to say "Me, too."

There, under 25 words to answer why they got into a saturated market.

The world needs another 1911/AR15 maker like the USA needs another Clinton or Obama.

 

[4506517]

3rd gennies production will never come back.

I guarantee they will stop doing limited runs for agencies in the next couple of years.

Yes, there are a lot of people here that would pay $1000+ for one.......that's the problem......they're only here......on this forum.

We have rehashed this debate SO many times, I would proffer that it is one of the most debated topics on this subforum.

It isn't coming back. Yes, it stinks......it isn't profitable for them to produce them, bottom line.

End of discussion.

 

[cpeblue]

I have no more trouble stripping/reassembling 3rd gen Smiths than I do any other auto.

Training is the solution.

The Beretta is good, but the Smith is better.
It's more durable, it fits different sized hands better, and the different grips make it fit even more.
Plus, the 5906 will feed empty brass.
Extreme feed reliability is a good thing.

I am addicted to 3rd gens but I don't let it blind me to all other guns. Buy a 92 , shoot it for a year (a couple of thousand rds ) then tell me what you think. I have smiths sigs czs glocks berettas a xd and a few 1911s there really isn't a bad gun in the bunch, most are all metal with only 6 being polymer . I'm done..

 

[LVSteve]

I have no more trouble stripping/reassembling 3rd gen Smiths than I do any other auto.

Training is the solution.

The Beretta is good, but the Smith is better.
It's more durable, it fits different sized hands better, and the different grips make it fit even more.
Plus, the 5906 will feed empty brass.
Extreme feed reliability is a good thing.

No amount of training fixes the fact that stuff happens and small parts get dropped and lost. Any military logistics person with two brain cells to rub together will pick the weapon that has captive devices for the occasions that the weapon needs cleaning.

I do agree that the 3rd gen grip is vastly superior to the 92. For sure the DA trigger (at least on my TSW) is way better, too.

 

[Joelssteinbach]

I agree with most others, the great motivator $$$$$

 

[robmcd]

I'll add my 2 cents worth. Sorry for exceeding the word limit.

S&W started making 1911's because it is still the single most popular semi-auto pistol in the USA. In the past their specialty services division (who even makes forged parts for Harley Davidson) made 1911 parts for other manufacturers, primarily because S&W has an in-house drop hammer forge, a huge amount of CNC machining centers, as well as heat treating, plating and finishing. That said, S&W's vertical diversification probably makes their own 1911 pistols quite profitable.

I have a few 3rd gen guns, and they are among my favorites, though realistically the future of the largest USA market segment includes molded plastic frames. S&W actually prototyped a plastic pistol in the 1960's (on display in the factory museum) ahead of Glock. Earlier this year S&W purchased the CT based supplier of their M&P series frames, (now known as Deep River Plastics) which was a smart move in a downsizing market.

A final note. I believe the excellent investment cast frames sold by Caspian are cast by Pine Tree Castings (a Ruger company) and finish machined by Caspian. There are two other sources of frames in Massachusetts, and they supply many smaller manufacturers.

 

[DepOne]

Like it or not, there is still nothing like a good 1911 trigger. No plastic gun will ever be able to match It. The 1911 has been around for over a hundred years and will be around for another hundred years. It is still a classic, elegant design. You can argue the logic all you want but it is amazing how many companies are making money on the design. I guess some people just don't feel the need for a politically correct, cumbersome trigger.