A Case against manual safetys?

[Protected One]

I saw this video the other day about a recent incident in Holland, Michigan. A good Samaritan intervened in a third party incident in a party store while carrying a .45 ACP 1911. During a hand to hand struggle with the perp the manual safety became unintentionally re-engaged, and may have delayed the follow up shot that fortunately stopped the threat.

The shooter commented in the interview that followed that he was switching to a glock 19 for edc (no manual safety).

The possibility of the safety re-engaging on a 1911 was something that I had not thought about before, and may represent a valid reason to avoid manual a safety on defensive handguns . Most often, I hear the failure to REMEMBER to disengage the safety used as the reason to avoid them. Entangled fighting with a gun in hand is a realistic possibility in a defensive encounter. It happens quite often.

Your thought's ladies and gentlemen?

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEaFAyESfPs[/ame]

 

[Warren Sear]

A little messy, but he got 'er dun.

Very little room for improvement, IMHO.

 

[swsig]

We haven't had a safety vs. no safety thread for a while. While I'm sure few will have an opinion about this issue, I'll break out the popcorn anyway.

 

[Protected One]

We haven't had a safety vs. no safety thread for a while.

Same topic...different rationale. Hopefully, the commenters will recognize this.

Put your popcorn away.

 

[Smoke]

I quit carrying guns with a manual safety after I engaged the safety on a 6906 while clearing a malfunction and couldn't figure out why it wouldn't fire. The more complex a system is the more likely it is to fail. If I'm ever required to use a handgun in self defense I want to remove as many opportunities for the system to fail as I can. No disengaging a safety.

 

[Muss Muggins]

Carry what you want, how you want. I won’t convince you otherwise, you won’t convince me otherwise. That’s why they sell all them different pistols and have all them different classes. #YouRollYourWayIRollMine

 

[M29since14]

To me, that is more a matter of getting too close to a cat fight in progress with a gun in your hand than it is of worrying over whether to select a gun with or without a safety. What a mess!

 

[Marshal Tom]

That has a lot to do with proper training much like carrying in condition 1 and not with an empty chamber. Don't even get me started on that one. If you have been trained with a 1911 you are taught to ride the safety with your thumb after you disengage it and keep your thumb on it until the safely is put back on. I have carried many different semi autos over that years but carried a 1911 exclusively for about 25 yrs as a LE and never had an issue with this. Train, train, train.

 

[WR Moore]

Looks like a typical example of failure to train adequately and then blaming the firearm for a training failure.

It'd be nice to be able to watch the video without pauses for the chatterbox commentary.

 

[Echo40]

Meh, you can use anecdotal evidence to make cases for or against anything.

If I wanted to, I could dig up instances right now in which the lack of a manual safety was or otherwise could have been a liability.

Personally, I like manual safeties on my firearms, it's just my preference, and no amount of anecdotal evidence is going to convince me that it's a bad idea.

As for the man stating that he'll be carrying a Glock from now on, that really doesn't mean much considering that most folks chose to replace their carry gun in the aftermath of a self-defense shooting. It's a natural response to analyze a incident afterwards, and most folks find room for improvement, regardless of whether or not there was any tangible difference to have been made.

 

[Ziggy2525]

I'm in the 'meh' camp on the safety. Life's not perfect. It'll always be something.

I'm sure I'll get flamed for this, but I have a couple other issues with the encounter in the video. First, was the attack on the woman actually a deadly force attack that warranted a deadly force response? Second, in the face-to-face interview on the Extra channel, the good guy/shooter said he hesitated shooting because he wasn't sure if he'd go to jail or not. His hesitation seems to result in the entangled encounter. Seems like the time to decide jail or not was before he drew the pistol.

 

[gman51]

To each their own. What could or might not happen can go either way for use of a safety. Like danged if you do, danged if you don't.

 

[bigggbbruce]

I carry a 1911, when in fire mode my thumb is on top of the safety holding it down. When done firing my thumb goes underneath.

 

[Imissedagain]

Maybe next time the guy in the video and his Glock will experience this: he’s hiking in a wet forest with his young children when he suddenly slips..... his Glock falls and it’s backstrap is wedged against some rocks. A youngster reaches for the gun... pushing the trigger... and blows off the old man’s big toe after punching a hole in the youngster’s thigh.

White corn with butter and salt please!

 

[Gamecock]

We are all responsible for our own salvation.

During a hand to hand struggle with the perp the manual safety became unintentionally re-engaged, and may have delayed the follow up shot that fortunately stopped the threat.

Sounds like a feature to me. Keeps the perp from shooting you if he gets control in the fight.

 

[bigggbbruce]

Maybe next time the guy in the video and his Glock will experience this: he’s hiking in a wet forest with his young children when he suddenly slips..... his Glock falls and it’s backstrap is wedged against some rocks. A youngster reaches for the gun... pushing the trigger... and blows off the old man’s big toe after punching a hole in the youngster’s thigh.

White corn with butter and salt please!

Sounds kind of specific.. got something you want to tell us..

 

[JayFramer]

The M1911 is the best warsman's fightist's pistols yet.

What was witnessed is a TRAINING FAILURE. The Glock 19 will NOT be an improvement!

 

[Smoke]

The M1911 is the best warsman's fightist's pistols yet.

Is this some obscure Airforce terminology?

What was witnessed is a TRAINING FAILURE.

This is true.

The Glock 19 will NOT be an improvement!

This is n t

 

[shouldazagged]

I've owned DA, SA and DAO revolvers, DA and DAO automatics, and Glocks, but never a pure SA. In old age I've gone back to revolvers, with a DAO for daily carry. No safety to be concerned about, just my preference since my reflexes aren't as fast.

But I think that's irrelevant to the video situation. The key element is the decision to draw and fire, regardless of the weapon.

Make your own decision about that.

 

[amazingflapjack]

To me-a glock, or anything with a trigger shoe, is MORE dangerous than a 1911-even with an unknown locked safety, because it is too easy to fire-even in a holster. And, the idea that I can decide on which situations I would intervene ahead of time is ludicrous IMHO.