A darned honest question-anyone else switch from 1911s to 3rd/2nd Gens?

[Kavinsky]

My first centerfire autoloader was a 1969 Colt National Match that I've had for 20 years now. I bought it used, it had been refinished, but I got it for a great price. Shot that for many years at some local matches. The 1911 points easy, trigger is great, and is very accurate with reloads using SWC. I can’t see myself ever selling that one.

But I had also wanted a 9mm and have always liked the look of S&W autoloaders. So ten years ago, with some money in my pocket, I bought a nice 559 still in the box. That gun is so reliable, never has jammed on me. Later on I bought a nice still in the box 659, which strangely I think fits my hand better. The 559 and 659 grips are different I found, and have measurements to prove it.

Now I am looking for a decent 645, having read so much about them on this forum. If I find a nice one locally, I will buy it!

I'm planning on doing the same but just a word of advice some of them seem to be better finished and better looking than others

like in particular the latter ones that have a matt black grip (if they havent been replaced with the packmyers) seem to look better finished and the checkering on the frontstrap looks cleaner

while some of the early ones do look rather scratchy, rough around the checkering and have a gloss grip

and this is something that's been perplexing me for awhile until I picked up on it as I liked the matt black griped ones better for some reason yet not the ones with the gloss grips until I took a closer look at the brushed stainless finish that the guy on the 4506 thread pointed out to me while talking about the transitional 645/ 4506 model and I noticed it looked better on the matt griped one, so it wasnt the grips that made the difference its basically the production date.

and actually this seems to be a trend with smith firearms, the latter 1980's guns seem to be overal better looking than the early 80's guns and better made atleast when it comes to the revolvers, the third gens and the 645

while most of the second gen 39 series guns seem to be pretty good and well built from the getgo as their just 39s in a new configuration that had all of the bugs worked out of it by then as the double stack 39 was ordered during the 70's for the navy or something

which fits as the 645 was a completely new gun back in 85 so it would need time to get the bugs worked out so to speak, like with the trigger which has a hitch on the SA from what everyones told me, something a trip to the gunsmith would easily solve.

while with the 4506 the trigger had been redone by novak for smith and thus I never hear that about the 4506 in that regard however you trade in those nice normal grips for an odd one piece unit that no one even uses anymore, that requires a punch to take out and it has trouble taking the hogue grip replacements

a weird hump of a front sight that looks like it was slapped on with no forethought plus its rigged up in the same way the Model 14's sights were, basically a partridge sight that could get snagged on a holster rather than the 645's front sight which was like the Baughman Quick Draw that was adopted on all of their revolvers past the model 15 so the front sight wouldnt catch on holsters.

basically one step forward, two steps back with the 4506 while the 645 only needs a trip to the gunsmith to remove the hitch, some locktight on the right side safety or a cap from a 4516, or the right side safety of the 4506 and then theres no real need to do anything else with it.

 

[BCDWYO]

This is an interesting discussion. I often carry a 1911 as my primary carry piece and I feel comfortable doing so. However, there are many other good choices...2nd and 3rd gen Smiths being only one of them. If we are looking to discuss 1911s vs other possibly more reliable semiautos, why not include excellent choices like HK USP, CZ, FNP, and even the polymer guns (Glock, XDM, S&W M&P). One could probably argue that any of these are at least equal to most 1911s in reliability. As has been pointed out however, when it comes to ergonomics and trigger (which relate to first shot accuracy), the good ol 1911 remains hard to beat.

 

[Kavinsky]

This is an interesting discussion. I often carry a 1911 as my primary carry piece and I feel comfortable doing so. However, there are many other good choices...2nd and 3rd gen Smiths being only one of them. If we are looking to discuss 1911s vs other possibly more reliable semiautos, why not include excellent choices like HK USP, CZ, FNP, and even the polymer guns (Glock, XDM, S&W M&P). One could probably argue that any of these are at least equal to most 1911s in reliability. As has been pointed out however, when it comes to ergonomics and trigger (which relate to first shot accuracy), the good ol 1911 remains hard to beat.

well that's purely down to trigger consistancy, your muscle memory and mind getting use to having one standard trigger pull, hence why SAO's and Double action revolvers were the standard for so long and hence why Jeff Cooper thought the ideal replacement for the 1911 was a CZ based design, because with the CZ 75 you have the option to carry cocked and locked or traditional DA/SA with the first shot and can put the safety on without decocking the gun

plus the position of the safety to begin with, its in a place where you can easily turn it on and off without accidentally putting it on like what can happen with trainees on the Beretta 92, walther P38/PPK series and the 39 series for that matter.

where atleast with the beretta they accidentally turned on the safety when pulling the slide back to rack the slide, probably with the trained tap and rack method, meaning instead of pulling directly back they were pushing down on the safety and pulling back the slide, or for that matter pulling up and back like I do on my p38.

 

[gtoppcop]

All,

All points are indeed salient. I like the 1911, the K, L and N-frames, the Beretta, the SIG and of late the 3rd Gens. They are ALL good guns.

I prefer to think of myself as being able to shoot all of them with an open mind. With that said, there was a time in my life when I was a 'revolver guy' and a '1911 o-file'. That's changed. I now enjoy shooting all of them.

I recognize the strengths and limitations of all of them, but prefer the durability, reliability and inherent safety (for a mechanical device) that the 3rd Gen offers. I have not had one malfunction on me yet. Yes, they DO feed empty cases.

The 1911 is a wonderful design. JMB should be indeed proud that his basic design has its primacy in the firearms world. My old duty Les Baer TR Special is in my view the best of the modern 1911.

I have to confess that I always thought that the S&W autos were of bad quality. That is most likely due to the issues of the early 39/59s. Funny how a stigma follows for decades afterwards.

My local gunsmith showed me his Russian T34 tank-like 4506. The heft and the redundancy built into it is awe-inspiring. His has digested thousands of rounds with nary a hiccup.

I have purchased five (5) 3rd Gens (two 4566s, two 4003TSWs and one 645) within the last year. I feel VERY well armed.

As much as I enjoy customizing my firearms, I am put off by the lack of bad manners the 3rd Gens display. Just when I think I can do something that they don't have, I'm thwarted. Looks like Wayne Novak working under the aegis of the Auto Improvement Program in the late 80s paid off.

When I leave the Corps, I want to get back into L.E. The S&W 4566 will be my 'go-to' gun. I also train with the Model 28, Beretta 92 (custom) and the 4003s for good measure. The wife is the new owner of the Baer. The Les Baer TR Special that I carried in the Denver-metro area in the late 90s still serves, albeit as her house gun. The Dawson Rail and the SureFire W117 (MARSOC light) is her 'bump-in-the-night' insurance.

Bottom Line: They're all good. I just happen to prefer the S&W 3rd Gens to all others.

 

[epj]

My meager collection contains several of each.

 

[Ranger98]

I have a collection of both and have been carrying the small, 1911 sub compact lately.

 

[markush]

My second or third handgun was a 1911 and have been in love with them ever since. I had been on the look out for an accurate, all steel 9mm for a while and recently picked up a police trade in 5906. I thought this gun was perfect and everything I was looking for, until my first range trip. My first range trip with a pistol is to check that all the magazines function and start with 1 round then two and so on up to five rounds per magazine and then shoot for groups 5 shots at a time. I shot less then 50 rounds through it that first trip before putting it away and shooting the 1911 for the rest of the range session. This was my first DA/SA gun and I really dislike the DA/SA!

I can shoot my striker fired DAO M&P and revolvers in DA without a problem. It's just that initial DA then SA that's just not right to me. The next range trip I tried shooting the 5906 in 5 round groups once more and this time shot less then 20 rounds before packing it away. I really am seriously considering selling it only because of the DA/SA trigger.

 

[mjb99]

Markush, perhaps a nice 5946 will solve your problems? I find that I REALY like the consistent trigger pull on the dao's.

Matt

 

[Joninwv]

I guess you could say I made the switch. I've owned a few 1911s over the years. I've had AMT, Norinco, Colt, any my final 1911 was an American Classic II. The ACII was the only one that actually worked to a degree that is was totally reliable and accurate. My final conclusion on the 1911 is that IF it works up to its potential you can expect it to be as reliable and accurate as a Glock, S&W, SIG, etc.....but chances are you are going to spend much more money to get it. I sold my ACII to buy a 3913. Now I have a 5906, a 3913, and I plan on getting more. No more 1911s for me.

 

[Mike SC Hunter]

I have 3rd gen's in 9mm/40/10 & 45. I still like the 1911 platform better. More ergonomic and lower barrel profile means more comfortable shooting.

 

[J. W.]

I enjoy my 1911's and carry a Colt Commander quite often. Their ergonomics and trigger are unsurpassed. I will say though that the 1911 has lost some of its luster for me over the years due to poor quality control from manufacturers.($1k guns that need fixing right out of the box) I find myself carrying my Glock19 more often these days. If I could find a 4513 TSW I'd all but retire my 1911's from carry.

 

[oldandfatonaharley]

Not me. My Kimber 1911-clone just works. My only complaint is that the factory magazines blow. I've been shooting 1911s since I was 10. I can pretty much operate them while asleep. My brother's 915, OTH, doesn't run, gives so-so accuracy, and we both hate the trigger pull. My whole reason for signing up here was to seek solutions to those issues that I could suggest. Perhaps it's a lemon. Other posts on here express satisfaction with the 915, and FWIW, the 3 S&W revolvers I've owned were good guns...

 

[Kavinsky]

By the way just as a sidenote for those who have magazine troubles with the 1911's when it comes to magazines it seems like the Colts prefer wilson combats while the Kimbers from what I understand prefer Chip Mccormicks.

Dont know why though, you would think one quality mag is all you'd need for something based off of the same 1911 design from a 101 years ago but them's the breaks I guess.

 

[Texas1941]

By the way just as a sidenote for those who have magazine troubles with the 1911's when it comes to magazines it seems like the Colts prefer wilson combats while the Kimbers from what I understand prefer Chip Mccormicks.

Dont know why though, you would think one quality mag is all you'd need for something based off of the same 1911 design from a 101 years ago but them's the breaks I guess.

Just some ramblings to consider:

True, the design is the same, but the execution is almost always a little different.

Example: I have a Kimber TLE II and a Colt Series 80. Both are more or less basic 5" Gevernment Model type 1911s. But there are significant design and dimensional differences between the two. They have different bushing systems, different firing pin safeties, and different guide rod sysems. The Kimber has many MIM parts, the Colt does not. The feed ramp angles and bbl throat dimensions are different. The chamber dimensions are different, with the Kimber being closer to what I consider "match" and the Colt closer to "GI".

In other words, while being the same basic design, they are two different handguns, made by different factories, using different manufacturing methods, with different dimensions in critical areas. They are very similar, but not identical. So it's not surprising that magazines, which have their own differences, may work well in one gun and not so well in another. One size does not fit all.

Side note: During the Great Ammo Shortage, I bought 1K of Russian Wolf steel case 230gr ball. It wouldn't function in the Kimber, producing 12 o'clock jams; didn't matter what magazine. It ran like a champ in the Colt, with every magazine I tried. I suspect the reason was the Colt's more generous chamber.

 

[Kavinsky]

hmm indeed and that also means we more or less have the same guns then, Although mines a Kimber gold match and a colt national match and the wilsons work perfectly with the series 80 NM.

which I myself just from the loose fitting of the gun consider to be just a standard model with target sights while with the kimber they've given me some issues although I'm starting to think the kimber is still in its break in period after all this time.

 

[1911heaven]

I love 1911's as if you couldn't tell by my name Well,I was holding my 4566 today and really thinking about how much it feels like a 1911.How much BETTER it feels (I'm in the S&W forum so my body armor is off) in my hands and I never thought I'd say that.Actually I've rekindled such a love for the S&W pistols,I've thought about.....struggling to say it ahhh what the hey selling my 1911 to replace it with a 4006TSW or 4506.There I said it.I'm glad you brought up this topic because alot of us have obviously come out of the closet on this question!!!!!!

 

[SW CQB 45]

I was once SW45 only because Admin said no to 1911. Admin changed....all 1911 now.

While i consider SW4500 an excellant double action first shot platform....i am fully committed to 1911 and the only way i would return, if Admin drops 1911 from general order.

Kept my handle but its more appropriate 1911 CQB 45.

Take care

 

[WR Moore]

I carried a 1911 for 19 years and built a fair number. While the 1911 was an outstanding piece of design 100 years ago, and in many ways still is, we've learned a lot in the last 100 years and conditions have changed. Simply put, there are better tools in the toolbox now, depending upon what you want to do with it.

I've never seen a 1911 with the stone reliability of my 5906, M&P9 or the M&P40 I'm issued. The trigger guard is big enough for gloves, the hammer can be lowered without involving great coordination on my part and the slides can be operated without setting the stage for a ND.

 

[Birds Away]

I have been a 1911 guy all my life. That's how I think of myself. Two weeks ago my last one left in a trade. I am not sure how I got here but now my primary carries are a 4566 or a 457. Funny how things happen.

 

[Wood 4]

I just made the switch. My colt delta match will always have a place in my heart but my 5906 will out shoot it all day long and never jams. Like the 1911 style love the smith.