Great thread, David. Thanks for sharing your story, ... and curiosity.
Jerry
Jerry
A DSC Snubnose Victory -- UPDATED WITH NEW SWHF INFO
- Thread starter DCWilson
- Start date
Another location that might yield some info would be Red River Arms Depot. It is about an hour and a half east of Paris in Bowie Co. Tx. It was a major ammunition depot during that period.
Bob
Bob
OP
I thank Don Mundell, Assistant Historian of the Smith & Wesson Historical Foundation, for digging up these documents and making them available to me.
Jack Reeves (John Freeman Reeves, 1896-1976), appears to have submitted a request to the Defense Supplies Corporation on or about March 15, 1945 (the date is in one of the lower documents). He appears to have asked for four .38 Special revolvers with four-inch barrels, and three .38 Special revolvers with two-inch barrels. On March 23, S&W Sales Manager David B. Murray wrote him this letter.
Murray advises Reeves that the four revolvers with four-inch barrels had been shipped, but reports that the DSC's supply of two-inch revolvers had been exhausted. He explains that three four-inch guns could be re-barreled, but at some cost for time and parts. Negotiating with himself, he dispenses with the parts cost and offers to undertake the modification of three revolvers at a total expense of $4.50 for the minimal required labor.
At the bottom of the letter Reeves squeezes in a quick reply and sends the whole page back to Murray: It's a deal, and I enclose payment.
Murray sends three revolvers to the Service Department (or Repair Department, according to the work order) for the necessary modifications and orders them to be returned to the Shipping Room when done. These next three images show the actual assessments for service work on three revolvers forwarded for modification: V625065, V625443, and V629214.
Murray then writes to Reeves again, letting him know that modifications have started and that the guns will be shipped in the near future:
And in conclusion, this following form is generated, which I take to be both a fulfillment memo for the DSC and documentation for S&W's own files that the DSC order was properly wrapped up. It's interesting to see an actual DSC Transaction number on S&W paperwork -- DSC 6001, in this case.
With these 75-year-old pages I finally have documentation that my two-inch Victory left the factory as a two-inch gun. That was already the most likely explanation for its consistent condition, but it's nice to have the company record. We also have the serial numbers of two more two-inch Victories that we can keep our eyes open for. We see that the DSC appears to have burned through all the two-inch Victories that were ever in their hands, but that S&W was willing to convert a gun on the fly before shipping to a specific customer exactly what he wanted.
Jack Reeves (John Freeman Reeves, 1896-1976), appears to have submitted a request to the Defense Supplies Corporation on or about March 15, 1945 (the date is in one of the lower documents). He appears to have asked for four .38 Special revolvers with four-inch barrels, and three .38 Special revolvers with two-inch barrels. On March 23, S&W Sales Manager David B. Murray wrote him this letter.
Murray advises Reeves that the four revolvers with four-inch barrels had been shipped, but reports that the DSC's supply of two-inch revolvers had been exhausted. He explains that three four-inch guns could be re-barreled, but at some cost for time and parts. Negotiating with himself, he dispenses with the parts cost and offers to undertake the modification of three revolvers at a total expense of $4.50 for the minimal required labor.
At the bottom of the letter Reeves squeezes in a quick reply and sends the whole page back to Murray: It's a deal, and I enclose payment.
Murray sends three revolvers to the Service Department (or Repair Department, according to the work order) for the necessary modifications and orders them to be returned to the Shipping Room when done. These next three images show the actual assessments for service work on three revolvers forwarded for modification: V625065, V625443, and V629214.
Murray then writes to Reeves again, letting him know that modifications have started and that the guns will be shipped in the near future:
And in conclusion, this following form is generated, which I take to be both a fulfillment memo for the DSC and documentation for S&W's own files that the DSC order was properly wrapped up. It's interesting to see an actual DSC Transaction number on S&W paperwork -- DSC 6001, in this case.
With these 75-year-old pages I finally have documentation that my two-inch Victory left the factory as a two-inch gun. That was already the most likely explanation for its consistent condition, but it's nice to have the company record. We also have the serial numbers of two more two-inch Victories that we can keep our eyes open for. We see that the DSC appears to have burned through all the two-inch Victories that were ever in their hands, but that S&W was willing to convert a gun on the fly before shipping to a specific customer exactly what he wanted.
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OP
A little about Jack Reeves
John Freeman Reeves, who was Chief of Police in Paris, TX in 1945, was born in Lamar County in 1896 and died there in 1976. His military service included a year in Europe during WWI. It isn't immediately clear what he was doing during the 1920s beyond starting a family, but in the 1930 census he is a Captain in the Paris firefighting service. In 1940 he is a Deputy Sheriff, and five years later we can see from the documents above that he is Chief of Police. In the available censuses he has a wife, sons, daughters and a mother-in law in his household. He is interred in Hickory Grove Cemetery near Petty, a few miles south of Paris.
Usually a Chief of Police will generate a few newspaper stories in the course of his career, but Reeves seems to have been a low-profile sort. Or maybe there just weren't any reporters around him when things got exciting.
John Freeman Reeves, who was Chief of Police in Paris, TX in 1945, was born in Lamar County in 1896 and died there in 1976. His military service included a year in Europe during WWI. It isn't immediately clear what he was doing during the 1920s beyond starting a family, but in the 1930 census he is a Captain in the Paris firefighting service. In 1940 he is a Deputy Sheriff, and five years later we can see from the documents above that he is Chief of Police. In the available censuses he has a wife, sons, daughters and a mother-in law in his household. He is interred in Hickory Grove Cemetery near Petty, a few miles south of Paris.
Usually a Chief of Police will generate a few newspaper stories in the course of his career, but Reeves seems to have been a low-profile sort. Or maybe there just weren't any reporters around him when things got exciting.
Absalom
SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
David:
That is a fantastic paper trail.
I don't have any particular interest in 2" Victorys. But I find something confirmed here that has puzzled me about another police order from June 1945:
All three serial numbers involved in your case, very close together, should fall (by extrapolation) into a June/July 1944 production timeframe. So they sat at the factory for almost a year.
I have posted before about the order of 4" Victorys for the Louisville Division of Police, 400 guns that shipped on June 6, 1945. I have by now accumulated full or partial serials for 9 guns, which are easily identifiable by a backstrap stamping. 9 out of 400 are statistically a better sample than we usually have for such batches, and all serials are in that same range, between V 602- and 630-. In fact, my specimen, V 626880, is in the vicinity of your three converted 2-inchers.
Just a peculiar pattern that's emerging here. It really can no longer be explained by some guns being late shippers due to not passing inspection, which was Roy's guess when I first double-checked just my Louisville gun's late ship date.
That is a fantastic paper trail.
I don't have any particular interest in 2" Victorys. But I find something confirmed here that has puzzled me about another police order from June 1945:
All three serial numbers involved in your case, very close together, should fall (by extrapolation) into a June/July 1944 production timeframe. So they sat at the factory for almost a year.
I have posted before about the order of 4" Victorys for the Louisville Division of Police, 400 guns that shipped on June 6, 1945. I have by now accumulated full or partial serials for 9 guns, which are easily identifiable by a backstrap stamping. 9 out of 400 are statistically a better sample than we usually have for such batches, and all serials are in that same range, between V 602- and 630-. In fact, my specimen, V 626880, is in the vicinity of your three converted 2-inchers.
Just a peculiar pattern that's emerging here. It really can no longer be explained by some guns being late shippers due to not passing inspection, which was Roy's guess when I first double-checked just my Louisville gun's late ship date.
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kwill1911
Member
David,
Thanks for sharing these fascinating documents. It would be helpful if you could re-post the original photographs of the gun. BTW, I practically grew up in Paris, TX, or at least spent a lot of weekends and summers there with my grandparents. My mother grew up there and my father grew up a little further east in Detroit, TX.
Thanks for sharing these fascinating documents. It would be helpful if you could re-post the original photographs of the gun. BTW, I practically grew up in Paris, TX, or at least spent a lot of weekends and summers there with my grandparents. My mother grew up there and my father grew up a little further east in Detroit, TX.
OP
Kevin, I think the original photos are long gone, but from the adjacent narrative I know what the missing photos must have shown. I'm going to rephotograph the gun and get replacement pics up soon. I will also be taking and inserting new photos for other threads where the loss of photos has severely impacted their utility.
I haven't been to Paris, but it's on my must-see list; I'm somewhat familiar with Lamar County through Google Earth, and I know other nearby counties well from travels. My mother's earliest years were spent not too far away in Frisco, Plano and McKinney. Her father had grown up in Colin County, and her mother hailed from Lewisville in Denton County. The part of Texas north and east of Fort Worth is one of my favorite areas in the US, and I hope to explore it more completely before I am ready for the rest home.
I haven't been to Paris, but it's on my must-see list; I'm somewhat familiar with Lamar County through Google Earth, and I know other nearby counties well from travels. My mother's earliest years were spent not too far away in Frisco, Plano and McKinney. Her father had grown up in Colin County, and her mother hailed from Lewisville in Denton County. The part of Texas north and east of Fort Worth is one of my favorite areas in the US, and I hope to explore it more completely before I am ready for the rest home.
tenntex32
Member
Living in North Central Texas I can tell you the area "northeast of Fort Worth" might as well be called North Dallas due to growth.
I can remember as a child travelling to see relatives in "east Texas" that lived in Sulphur Springs and Winnsboro and there wasn't even a stop sign between Denton and McKinney on 380.....and very few between McKinney and Greenville. When they finally put a stop sign up at a 4-way intersection between Denton and McKinney my father forgot about it the first few times and blew right through it.
My family just spent a few days out on Lake Caddo on the Texas/Louisiana state line in the small Texas town of Uncertain. We went 380 east and west for part of the the trip and there are now a million stop signs and stop lights between Denton and Greenville. Just crazy how much it's grown in that area. Large housing subdivisions, schools, businesses, and shopping areas springing up everywhere out there.
I've been saying for a several years now that they need to build another true freeway several miles north of 380 for through traffic!
If you've never seen the bald cyprus trees out on Lake Caddo it is something to behold. The state park there offers some beautiful views of them but don't forget to take a boat tour as well!
I seem to remember Paris Texas getting hit by a large tornado or two when I was growing up.
I can remember as a child travelling to see relatives in "east Texas" that lived in Sulphur Springs and Winnsboro and there wasn't even a stop sign between Denton and McKinney on 380.....and very few between McKinney and Greenville. When they finally put a stop sign up at a 4-way intersection between Denton and McKinney my father forgot about it the first few times and blew right through it.
My family just spent a few days out on Lake Caddo on the Texas/Louisiana state line in the small Texas town of Uncertain. We went 380 east and west for part of the the trip and there are now a million stop signs and stop lights between Denton and Greenville. Just crazy how much it's grown in that area. Large housing subdivisions, schools, businesses, and shopping areas springing up everywhere out there.
I've been saying for a several years now that they need to build another true freeway several miles north of 380 for through traffic!
If you've never seen the bald cyprus trees out on Lake Caddo it is something to behold. The state park there offers some beautiful views of them but don't forget to take a boat tour as well!
I seem to remember Paris Texas getting hit by a large tornado or two when I was growing up.
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OP
Top post once again has photos.
ordnanceguy
Member
Hello David:
Thank you for this valuable update. Isn't it amazing what can be drawn from the S&WHF documents that were so carefully preserved and then digitized at considerable expense so as to make them useful to collectors?
One other minor observation. Although your example did not ship until April 1945, there is a well-known group of 2-inch guns in the same serial range of V650000 +/- or so. Almost all of those guns were shipped to various law enforcement agencies in 1944. As the March, 1945 S&W letter you posted indicates by early 1945 the supply of them was quickly exhausted.
I noticed in the Victory Model Database that the 2 inchers in the V650000 range which shipped in 1944 had P-proof marks on the upper left frame, the cylinder face and the barrel flat. A few of these recorded in the Database had no mention of P-proof marks which I think now was an oversight by the reporting parties.
Your example has the P mark in 2 of those 3 locations, the exception being the barrel flat. And that makes sense because we now understand that your revolver was originally manufactured as a 4 incher that had its barrel changed to a 2 incher before it left the factory, at Chief Reeve's request. For whatever reason, the standard P mark on the barrel flat was not applied to your example before it left the factory even though the proper serial number was applied.
As I said, this is a very minor observation but one that I will remember if I ever run across another 2 incher with 2 out of 3 of the usual P-proof markings.
Thank you for this valuable update. Isn't it amazing what can be drawn from the S&WHF documents that were so carefully preserved and then digitized at considerable expense so as to make them useful to collectors?
One other minor observation. Although your example did not ship until April 1945, there is a well-known group of 2-inch guns in the same serial range of V650000 +/- or so. Almost all of those guns were shipped to various law enforcement agencies in 1944. As the March, 1945 S&W letter you posted indicates by early 1945 the supply of them was quickly exhausted.
I noticed in the Victory Model Database that the 2 inchers in the V650000 range which shipped in 1944 had P-proof marks on the upper left frame, the cylinder face and the barrel flat. A few of these recorded in the Database had no mention of P-proof marks which I think now was an oversight by the reporting parties.
Your example has the P mark in 2 of those 3 locations, the exception being the barrel flat. And that makes sense because we now understand that your revolver was originally manufactured as a 4 incher that had its barrel changed to a 2 incher before it left the factory, at Chief Reeve's request. For whatever reason, the standard P mark on the barrel flat was not applied to your example before it left the factory even though the proper serial number was applied.
As I said, this is a very minor observation but one that I will remember if I ever run across another 2 incher with 2 out of 3 of the usual P-proof markings.
Absalom
SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
This may provide insight into the sequence of processes at the plant.
The 4-inchers were apparently fully "done", including the inspection and application of the P proofs by the ordnance contractors (not S&W employees), when they were selected to be rebarreled. The service people serialed the new barrels, but the guns did not go through ordnance inspection again.
Which stocks would it have had as original?
ordnanceguy
Member
Smooth walnut stocks.
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