A Good Safety Lesson

[Tilheyra]

Fortunately, no one came anywhere close to getting injured! Yet, I still think this is good to discuss as it is a lesson in taking the safe course. This is a little long of a post, but I want to note what I did for the purpose of transparency, as well as to show how frustrations can (and should) be a cause to pause and reassess.

I finally got to test out my reloading setup yesterday, as I went to load some 38 Special cases with lead semi wadcutters. As I got everything ready, I decided to place my digital scale on a concrete floor inside the garage (and kept my smartphone away from it), because I did not know if my new reloading bench would be steady enough for the scale. I calibrated the scale in accordance with the instructions and everything checked out. Thus, after waiting for the scale to warm up for about 20 minutes, and getting the rest of my equipment ready in the mean time, I went to start measuring my powder.

I did a couple of tests throwing powder from my powder measure and trickling up. That seemed to go well, so I went to measuring and trickling out my powder for my rounds. The first two seemed to go well (and I seated and crimped the bullets as I went as well), but the scale started acting weird on the third attempt. The scale would not update no matter how much powder I trickled. I put some powder from the pan back into my trickler, weighed again, and was able to trickle up to what I wanted, so I loaded the third round.

The same worked for the fourth and fifth rounds, but by that time I was so frustrated with the scale I turned it off, turned it back on, and then recalibrated. After letting it sit for about 15 minutes, I returned and saw it was showing .5 grains without anything other than the brass pan being on the scale (the scale is designed to not consider the weight of the pan, thus it shows zero when properly calibrated). Frustrated, I turned it off, turned it back on, calibrated it, and let it sit about 10 minutes. Returning to the scale, I saw it showing .4 grains with nothing on it. At that point I was too uncomfortable to continue, so I stopped for the purpose of safety and reassessed.

Today, I went to a friend's place and used his scale to check the weight of the charges. His scale has a long track record of accuracy. After weighing a bullet with a primed case on the scale to get a baseline, I weighed each of my five loaded cases one by one. Once doing the appropriate math, I found the powder across all cases varied from 2 to 9 grains over what I had wanted. To be safe, I took all of the rounds apart by pulling the bullets and dumping the powder.

It was a pretty frustrating experience, but I am glad I paused when things seemed too weird and uncomfortable to proceed. I'm not sure what I should do about my digital scale, but I went ahead and bought a balance beam scale to try out in the mean time. We'll see how that works out.

Overall, it was a good lesson for me in safety, and it shows the value of being attentive and mindful at all parts of the reloading process.

UPDATE: My balance beam scale arrived! I discuss this in post 38.

 

[glenwolde]

Was your brass all of the same brand and lot?

 

[Krogen]

Thanks for sharing your findings. Excellent that you spotted something amiss and set out to analyze the issue. It would be interesting to know what you're using to measure your powder charges.

It appears that your process is to take one round through all steps and then start another one. I have found that, at least with a single-stage press, I do better in batch mode. For example, I size all the cases in a lot, then bell all the cases, then prime all of them etc. When charging cases, I put them all in a loading block and then inspect the powder levels with a flashlight when they're all filled. Then I move on the seating and crimping. I find that batch mode as described is better for consistency in all the steps. And I have the opportunity to check powder levels visually before seating the bullets.

Of course, my preferred methodology goes out the window when I use a progressive press. Knowing the concerns, I just go slow and maintain an eagle eye. There's a lot going on at once with a progressive and it can be easy to miss things.

You did great to see this occurring and figure things out analytically. That kind of attentiveness goes a long way to keep us out of trouble.

 

[socal s&w]

Was there a light/slight breeze blowing across the floor? Was the concrete floor cold and warming up?
Fluctuations in temperature and even a slight movement of air often will register on an electronic scale (even breathing on it can do the same).

 

[Tilheyra]

Was your brass all of the same brand and lot?

Yes, they were all the same brand and lot.

 

[Tilheyra]

Was there a light/slight breeze blowing across the floor? Was the concrete floor cold and warming up?
Fluctuations in temperature and even a slight movement of air often will register on an electronic scale (even breathing on it can do the same).

There was no breeze that I could detect, but I did not think about the other variables you mentioned. Those could have been a possibility.

 

[Tilheyra]

Thanks for sharing your findings. Excellent that you spotted something amiss and set out to analyze the issue. It would be interesting to know what you're using to measure your powder charges.

It appears that your process is to take one round through all steps and then start another one. I have found that, at least with a single-stage press, I do better in batch mode. For example, I size all the cases in a lot, then bell all the cases, then prime all of them etc. When charging cases, I put them all in a loading block and then inspect the powder levels with a flashlight when they're all filled. Then I move on the seating and crimping. I find that batch mode as described is better for consistency in all the steps. And I have the opportunity to check powder levels visually before seating the bullets.

Of course, my preferred methodology goes out the window when I use a progressive press. Knowing the concerns, I just go slow and maintain an eagle eye. There's a lot going on at once with a progressive and it can be easy to miss things.

You did great to see this occurring and figure things out analytically. That kind of attentiveness goes a long way to keep us out of trouble.

I was using a Lyman 1000 XP digital scale. The powder measure is a Lee Perfect Powder measure. I was able to get the powder measure within a few tenths of a grain, so I left it there and decided to trickle up using the trickler and the scale.

I was thinking about using the batch method, but I was wanting to get the dies on my turret press all set up on the first round. This was helped by having sized and primed all the brass using the batch method a few days earlier. I figured I would just keep putting in the powder and seating the bullet as I was doing a small batch of 20 rounds to test things out.

 

[Paul in Nevada]

A couple thoughts...
I have a PACT scale that was considered state of the art when I bought it 18 years ago. I have never really trusted it. Digital scales have a few quirks you have to be aware of.

First off, most digital scales are supposed to "warm up" for 15 minutes before use. Next, they are insanely sensitive to air currents. A lot of scales these days have a clear cover for the pan to block drafts. Mine doesn't have this so I set a tupperware tub over the scale after filling the pan. The other big problem is that they are very sensitive to RF noise. Fluorescent lights are the worst culprits. In addition to the RF emitted by the bulb there will be a lot of EM noise in the power circuit. In fact, anything that makes a lot of noise on that circuit will mess with your scale. Motors, lights, etc. Wireless devices can do it too. It's all radio.
Finally, most digital scales will not reliably read trickled charges despite what the manufacturer claims. I forget the details but it has to do with what kind of circuit is used to read pressure on the plate.

My PACT will accurately read several charges in a row. Then it will hunt, then it will settle down and lie to me by as much as a grain. I gave up and went back to the old RCBS 5-0-5 balance beam that came with my first press. I trust it.


One last thought,
Weighing loaded cartridges doesn't tell you much. It's called tolerance stacking. Weigh your components separately. Weigh a random sample of primers and note the weight variation. Now measure a sample of cases. Then projectiles. When you consider the combined potential of variations you will be well outside the acceptable errors in a given powder charge. In other words, the weight variations in the other components will be large enough to mask variations in powder charges. Beyond spotting a double charge/no charge you won't be able to draw any conclusions about powder charge variations. I tried this with a sample of 124gr 9mm cartridges using plinker bullets and unsorted cases. Despite measuring each charge on a trusted scale, the finished rounds varied by several grains.

 

[Nevada Ed]

You might weigh 5 grs of powder for ten cases and place them in a block....
then with good lighting, see if they are all close to the same level.

Your electric scale should not throw the different weights, that you mentioned.

If it keeps up, the scale might be falty and need to go back for repair or replacement.

 

[Tilheyra]

A couple thoughts...
I have a PACT scale that was considered state of the art when I bought it 18 years ago. I have never really trusted it. Digital scales have a few quirks you have to be aware of.

First off, most digital scales are supposed to "warm up" for 15 minutes before use. Next, they are insanely sensitive to air currents. A lot of scales these days have a clear cover for the pan to block drafts. Mine doesn't have this so I set a tupperware tub over the scale after filling the pan. The other big problem is that they are very sensitive to RF noise. Fluorescent lights are the worst culprits. In addition to the RF emitted by the bulb there will be a lot of EM noise in the power circuit. In fact, anything that makes a lot of noise on that circuit will mess with your scale. Motors, lights, etc. Wireless devices can do it too. It's all radio.
Finally, most digital scales will not reliably read trickled charges despite what the manufacturer claims. I forget the details but it has to do with what kind of circuit is used to read pressure on the plate.

My PACT will accurately read several charges in a row. Then it will hunt, then it will settle down and lie to me by as much as a grain. I gave up and went back to the old RCBS 5-0-5 balance beam that came with my first press. I trust it.


One last thought,
Weighing loaded cartridges doesn't tell you much. It's called tolerance stacking. Weigh your components separately. Weigh a random sample of primers and note the weight variation. Now measure a sample of cases. Then projectiles. When you consider the combined potential of variations you will be well outside the acceptable errors in a given powder charge. In other words, the weight variations in the other components will be large enough to mask variations in powder charges. Beyond spotting a double charge/no charge you won't be able to draw any conclusions about powder charge variations. I tried this with a sample of 124gr 9mm cartridges using plinker bullets and unsorted cases. Despite measuring each charge on a trusted scale, the finished rounds varied by several grains.

Time for me to read up on tolerance stacking! It will be a good consideration for the future.

There was a fluorescent light in use in the garage, so that certainly may have been interfering with the scale. I will start noting the variables and see what I can do to control things. I want to see if I can get the digital scale to be reliable.

 

[STORMINORMAN]

Should one want to measure by both weight and volume a set of LEE Dippers can allow you to cross check your initial load. I use mine all the time.

To the OP: Your scale is obviously defective.

Cheers!

 

[Tilheyra]

You might weigh 5 grs of powder for ten cases and place them in a block....
then with good lighting, see if they are all close to the same level.

Your electric scale should not throw the different weights, that you mentioned.

If it keeps up, the scale might be falty and need to go back for repair or replacement.

I'll try this as well to test the scale again. I'm too curious about how to make the scale more reliable to not keep testing things. Of course, I won't use it for reloading until I am confident in it.

 

[STORMINORMAN]

Ed: He's using some other device to drop (throw?) the powder and trickling into a scale... The electronic scale won't calibrate. He has no base to compare other charges. If his loads vary from "2 to 9 grains" it is a potentially dangerous situation.

 

[rockquarry]

These threads regarding electronic scale reliability always repeat the same experiences mentioned in this one. Some claim their scales are reliable much of the time. Others say their scales don't work well at all. Still others cite their scales as being fickle and unreliable and check them often using balance beam scales.

I tried a Lyman electronic scale years ago and found out quickly that the extra (minimal) time required to use a balance beam scale was time well spent to get an accurate reading every time. I'm not specifically knocking Lyman electronic scales. The cheaper electronic scales generally used by handloaders may come under many different brand names, but apparently are very similar or may even be the same basic scale sold by different companies. Some work, some don't, and some work some of the time.

The only electronic scales I would consider for consistent accuracy and reliability cost far more than most of us would be willing to spend. I use a good powder measure for handgun loads but still verify charges regularly using a balance beam scale. For rifle ammo, same thing if powder goes through my Redding measure uniformly. If powder doesn't flow well, I weigh every charge. A bit slower, but I get good ammo with uniform powder charges every time.

 

[TjB101]

I always use two scales. Digital and beam to zero in my powder throw and then beam (505) to check every Nth throw after that. I’ve never trusted just one scale.

 

[Cdog]

I've had several digital scales. My first one was a Pact. Never had one I competely trust.

They're great for convenience, confirming bullet weights, etc. I've seen static from my hand being near them cause changes in readings. I discarded my plastic/nylon pans and use only metal too. When using an Auto Disc Measure, the digital is handy. Weighing the case before and after charge is a lot faster than confirming with a beam type analog.

I do coarse measurements with my desktop Hornady digital, but precision still calls for the beam scale. The old RCBS 10-10 is almost as insensitive as an ex-wife.

 

[kbm6893]

Thanks for sharing your findings. Excellent that you spotted something amiss and set out to analyze the issue. It would be interesting to know what you're using to measure your powder charges.

It appears that your process is to take one round through all steps and then start another one. I have found that, at least with a single-stage press, I do better in batch mode. For example, I size all the cases in a lot, then bell all the cases, then prime all of them etc. When charging cases, I put them all in a loading block and then inspect the powder levels with a flashlight when they're all filled. Then I move on the seating and crimping. I find that batch mode as described is better for consistency in all the steps. And I have the opportunity to check powder levels visually before seating the bullets.

Of course, my preferred methodology goes out the window when I use a progressive press. Knowing the concerns, I just go slow and maintain an eagle eye. There's a lot going on at once with a progressive and it can be easy to miss things.

You did great to see this occurring and figure things out analytically. That kind of attentiveness goes a long way to keep us out of trouble.

I do almost the same. The cases and prepped and primed in batches, but I don’t drop powder in batches. I used to do that, then my arm bumped something and I spilled the powder in the case over the loading block of charged cases. Had to start all over. Now I drop powder and seat bullet immediately. Works better anyway. Now I can load as few or as many as I want without leaving a loading block filled with charged cases sitting there.

And I gave up on digital scales long ago. Beam scale for me.

 

[chief38]

My experience has been that most digital scales are accurate. I can't remember ever seeing a digital scale that wasn't as tested against my beloved "dinosaurish" mechanical one. You could have a defective one - that is not am impossibility. I am sure whoever made it will go over it, replace it or repair it as required. I'd also not use the scale on a floor in a garage! figure out how to shim and sturdy up your work bench. Turn off fans and make sure you don't have any air blowing across the scale.

I have used digital scales at friends houses many times, but my own preference is my good old RCBS (Ohaus) 10-10 mechanical scale. There are no circuits to fail, no wires to break and the mechanical mechanism is about as simple as it gets. The only bad thing I've ever seen happen to a mechanical scale is when the owner leaves it set up in the operating position over long periods of time. The nylon pivot point gets marred and throws off the accuracy. When that has happened to friends, RCBS has repaired, or replaced it and tested the scale for them at no charge. Even the return freight was free. The way to prevent that from ever happening is to not leave it in the set up position over night - simple enough.

 

[mikerjf]

Huh... I've been using a cheap digital without any problems, but now you got me worried! Have to pick up a balance beam for cross-checking I guess.

One reason I haven't worried to date is the "repeatability" factor. The process I settled on:

1. Calibrate scale every session with the weight that came with it.

2. I use the little tin pan and "tare" the scale to zero with the pan on it.

3. Fill pan using Lee scoop to start, giving me a vol/weight cross-check. "Trickle" more from another scoop to get to desired charge by weight.

4. Pick the pan up and dump into case (scale goes way off since everything is removed).

5. Replace tin pan and watch for scale to return to exact zero. Loop to step 3 for next cartridge.

Since the physical pan weight doesn't change, any variance on the part of the scale should affect the tare zero.

And of course, anything that doesn't feel right (or if I go way over-charge), it gets dumped and I start over for that one.

(FWIW, I also put my bullets in the case as soon as charged, and they sit in the block that way.)

 

[gwpercle]

50 + years loading with a beam scale ( non-electronic) = No Problems.
Think about it . Truth ...electronic scales aren't Better .

Concrete slab in garage contains a layer of steel wire mesh ...
the steel is about 2" under your scale and covers the entire area of the floor ... it messes with electronics .

Advice ... pick up a simple beam scale to double check electronic scale, they're hard to fool .

ATTABOY awarded big time for catching the powder charge discrepancies ... That was a sharp move . You have to be most careful when dipensing powder in this hobby .

Sometimes I use a simple scoop to measure handgun charges ...
I find it not only the simplest way but the Safest Way to measure powder .

Note ...put your electronic scale on your bench , away from fluorscent Light fixtures and on a electrical circuit that has no motors on it ...refg, freezer , a/c blower moter ...any motor that cycles on/off ... those things disturb the settings big time . Check the weight often because electronic scales just love to go Wonky when you aren't paying attention.
Load Safe ,
Gary