A New Guy and a Bekeart. A Real One?

[collegeboy]

Also a New Guy with a 22/32 Question

I purchased a gun for my son to learn shooting a pistol. I purchased a S&W. I didn't know anyhting about it and was going to reblue it. The dealer stopped me. I have not been able to find out anything about what I had until I saw this post. My gun has 22 Long Rifle CTG on the barrel and then Smith and Wesson Springfield Mass (with a bunch of patent numbers on the top of the barrel). There is no serial number on the bottom of the wood grips. The Cylinder and the metal plate behind the trigger guard (running down the handleis 163127 with a star after it. Can anyone tell me what I have and what it's worth? SHoulkd I not be shooting this gun for fun and put it away? Thanks for any insight!!!

 

[JSR III]

Bringing this thread back up since I love talking about the .22/32 HFT's.

McSurly, did you ever letter the gun??? Not to belabor the point, but from reading all of the posts in the thread, your .22/32 HFT has had the barrel replaced, the extractor rod replaced, and the "stocks" are questionable as to being original to the gun.

Normally, S&W only numbered the right stock panel and after 100 years or so, most of these pencil markings are very faint to say the least. Your stocks are very boldly marked and the serial number appears on both stock panels. Very possibly a prior owner wrote over the faint number on the right panel so it would be legible and then decided to mark the left so they would marry to this gun. Also possible that someone knew that stocks were typically pencil marked and decided to validate these stocks to this gun. At this point who knows.

Collector value of your gun is diminished due to the barrel and extractor rod swap, so the stock discussion is merely academic at this point.

So to refresh, there is no corelation between serial numbers and the 3000 numbered stock numbers. Even Roy Jinks can not tell you what the number of the stocks were when you request a letter. (Not to be confused with the penciled serial number inside the right panel). Conversely, he can tell you which registration number goes with what serial number and vice versa on the Registered Magnums.(S&W trivia) Those records are available, no so for the Bekearts.

S&W did not ship in serial number sequence. Bekeart received his first 292 guns in seven shipments between June 7 and August 31, 1911. The first shipment started with 138,227, 229, 230 232, 233. So within the first 5 guns shipped, 228 and 231 did not go to Bekeart and will letter to somewhere else.

The gun became a catalogued model in 1915 at around serial number 160,000. (S&W trivia)

Not really sure what happened to serial numbers between 139,248 (last known Bekeart) and 160,000 (cataloged guns). I have never seen a .22/32 with a serial number in the 140,000 or 150,000 range. I own 3, one in the 160's, one in the 270's and one in the 384's.

Anybody have one in the 140's or 150's???

 

[sandwtrader]

Just to add a little detail on 1 of these neat guns: SN163198 wears extended target stocks numbered 1168 on the bottom and have the faint but visible same serial number 163198 on the right grip panel. Shipped 1912.
This is a very informative thread! Thanks to all participants.
L Slaten

 

[jcelect]

Two points overlooked!

Hey MrSurly
The serial number of a gun were on the grips because the grips were fitted to that gun while the gun was in the white, then removed while the gun was sent to the blueing dept. This insured the proper grips were installed on the gun at final assembly! As stated before the number on the bottom of the grips has no correlation to the serial number.
IMHO, production runs of 1000 guns is a bit over estimated! During the time period we are talking about there was no CNC machinery and production methods had many machines and people involved in the production of one gun! I think this alone would cause the "blocks of serial numbers" to be mixed much more easily. Also these 22/32 Targets were serial numbered in the 32 HE series and I am sure there were many more HEs made than 22/32 Targets in 1000 serial numbers!
jcelect SWCA#LM723

 

[Club Gun Fan]

Hi
here,s the information on the Bekeart models they were only 292 that were shipped to Phil Beleart. all the guns were shipped in 1911 and were in the serial number range of 130xxx. these are the only real Bekeart models.
the grip numbers do not mean that a gun is a bekeart model.
all the ones that were shipped after the 292. went to various places.
and they were call 22/32 heavy target models.
thats what your gun is and it was shipped in the late 1918 to 1920.
I hope this helps.
Jim Fisher
Here is a picture of a one of 292 first shippment to Bekeart.
and the real box.
the Grip number is #274 Serial Number of gun Is 138539 and it shipped to Phil Bekeart.

Jim,
Is that the gun and box that sold in Old Town Stations Auction of Gary and Martha Sheets Smith & Wesson collection. I sold Gary an original Bekeart and Martha bought a box in Tulsa. She called me the night she bought it. Shortly after that I sold the gun to Gary.

 

[jametcalfe83]

22/32 Serial Number / Grip Number that I have learned of

138245 / 47
138368 / 111
138437 / 567
138539 / 274
138569 / 683
138583 / ?? Shipped July 20, 1911 - Hartley & Company
138934 / 518
139079 / ?? Shipped September 11, 1911 - Folsom & Company
139254 / 989 Shipped September 15, 1911 - Termusch Fishing and Tackle Company
163198 / ?? Shipped May 1912
163234 / ?? Shipped May 1912
1632xx / 1181
163353 / ?? Shipped May 1912
163373 / 1222 Shipped May 1912
1633xx / 1133
1635xx / 1298
1636XX / 1693
163605 / ?? Shipped in May 1912, but did NOT go to Bekeart.
163662 / 1615 Shipped to Bekeart on June 3, 1912
163698 / ?? did go to Bekeart in June 1912.
163803 / 1546
163908 / 1686
164112 / 2046
164122 / 1858
164xxx / 1869


?? 207998 / 2117 ??

207926 - 208416 shipped to M.W.Robinson in 1914.

Hello there,
I am new to the forum and believe that I have a Bekaert original. The SN is 138795 / Grip Number 395
Am thinking it would be worth it to get the factory letter, thoughts? Thanks for any info!
-Jacob

 

[jsfricks]

Jacob,
Read post #2 from Jim-
here,s the information on the Bekeart models they were only 292 that were shipped to Phil Beleart. all the guns were shipped in 1911 and were in the serial number range of 130xxx. these are the only real Bekeart models.
the grip numbers do not mean that a gun is a bekeart model.
all the ones that were shipped after the 292. went to various places.

 

[Hondo44]

Unfortunately, many under informed sellers tend to lump all 22/32 HFTs with the very early issue true 'Bekeart’ Model, but they do not all share the same rarity/collectability and each of the four recognized Bekeart classes vary substantially in value even in like condition.

The four classification of "True" Bekeart Models in order of their collectability and value are summarized below from the SCS&W, 3rd edition:

On April 25, 1911 an order for the 1st production run of 1,050 Bekeart models began in the serial range of # 138226 thru # 139275, completed on July 10, 1911. Only 1,044 revolvers were actually completed/shipped and their grips were #’d 1 - 1044.

The 1st classification of "True" Bekeart Models are the 294 (lately revised from 292 by Roy Jinks) of that original production run within the above range that were actually shipped to Bekeart.

The 2nd class of Bekearts are the remainder of the guns in that production run and serial range that went to other dealers.

The 3rd class of Bekearts is the remainder with grip numbers from #1 to #3000 after which grip #s were discontinued, but there is no official factory 'list' of serial numbers for this class, albeit there are accumulated partial lists from lettered guns; the grip number and with grip serial number matching the gun, being sufficient to identify them along with a factory letter.

The 4th and last class, also least valuable or desirable, is any 22/32 Heavy Frame Target from later pre-war production runs that 'letter' as being shipped to Bekeart Sporting goods in S.F. Again there is no official serial number list for this class.

Notes:

Roy Jinks states that the stock number indicates the sequence that the gun was assembled. Or in other words, gun #138227 w/stock #289 was the 289th gun assembled. But it's known by the serial number 138227, although the second serial # numerically in the 1st production run, it wasn’t shipped until the 4th Bekeart shipment. So it is evident as with most S&W guns, there was no rhyme or reason related to the serial # as to when guns were shipped by S&W.

Bekeart serial numbers were in the .32 Hand Ejector serial number series, so there are huge gaps in the Bekeart serial #s. For example, the next production run started at 160,000. Obviously the guns in between were .32 HEs.

When Smith added this model to regular production c.1915 it was given the model name of 22/32 Heavy Frame Target, because relative to the tiny M frame Ladysmith, the only other Smith .22 at the time, it was a heavier frame.

 

[opoefc]

Group, FYI, Ser. # 138226 ( first 22/32 assembled, formerly in my collection) did not go to Phil Bekeart, but to a NY distributor, as I recall. It was in poor condition with incorrect grips, when I owned it many years ago. Also, 207977 was shipped Jan. 14, 1914, to M.W.Robinson, as part of a shipment of 490 revolvers, shipped in several batches. All the 490 guns had a number on the bottom of the grips. Ed.

 

[opoefc]

Add this to the survey: Ser. # 138694 has stocks with number 555. Ed.

 

[Hondo44]

Group, FYI, Ser. # 138226 ( first 22/32 assembled, formerly in my collection) did not go to Phil Bekeart, but to a NY distributor, as I recall. It was in poor condition with incorrect grips, when I owned it many years ago. Ed.

Ed,

One would assume that # 138226 originally had grip number 1 and therefore a 3rd class Bekeart.

Thanks for the additional # information.

REVISED: I meant 2nd class Bekeart above. Thanks to Masterpiece for catching my typo....again!!

 

[Masterpiece]

One would assume that # 138226 originally had grip number 1 and therefore a 3rd class Bekeart.

Jim,

Please correct me if I'm misunderstanding, but didn't you mean to state Serial No.138226 be considered a 2nd Class Bekeart given it didn't ship to Philip Bekeart's Shop...or do you now consider it to be a 3rd Class because it lacked the Original Grips stamped with #1...Hmmm??

 

[Hondo44]

Tracy,

I most certainly did, another TYPO! If this keeps up I'm gonna have to stop posting or start paying you for editing services rendered!!

Thank you, I'll revise post.....

 

[Masterpiece]

I most certainly did, another TYPO! If this keeps up I'm gonna have to stop posting or start paying you for editing services rendered!!

Jim,

No problem!! I am curious though...How much ya' payin' for these "Editing Services"??...Ha!!-Ha!!

All kidding aside...I actually asked the question because I thought the Incorrect Grips may have been why you stated it the way you did!!

 

[Hondo44]

No, I didn't downgrade to 3rd class because of missing grips. Even if it's a bad assumption that #138226 had grips #1, I feel it's a very good assumption that it was at least in the first run and therefore still in the 2nd class.

P.S. I'm a very generous client.

 

[Masterpiece]

Even if it's a bad assumption that #138226 had grips #1, I feel it's a very good assumption that it was at least in the first run and therefore still in the 2nd class.

Jim,

Thanks...Had to ask though!! I also believe...given the info came from Ed...one can be pretty well assured 138226 "Was" the 1st of these Revolvers assembled & would have had #1 stamped on Grips given...as he stated in his Post...the Grips on it when he owned it weren't correct!!

 

[wfsubking]

138694 grip 555

No longer for sale!!

 

[JSR III]

Thanks...Had to ask though!! I also believe...given the info came from Ed...one can be pretty well assured 138226 "Was" the 1st of these Revolvers assembled & would have had #1 stamped on Grips given...as he stated in his Post...the Grips on it when he owned it weren't correct!!

Not to drag out this thread but that is not necessarily true. 138226 was the first frame to receive a serial number but would not have to be the first gun assembled. If Roy's statement is true, that the numbered stocks were placed on the guns as they were assembled, 138227 could have been assembled before 138226 and received stocks numbered 1.

As far as levels of "Bekeartness", one could actually assign 6 levels.

1) One of the first 294 actually shipped to Bekeart
2) One of the first 1,000 that he ordered but didn't get
3) One of the first 1,044 that were actually produced in the run when 1,000 were requested. (S&W sometimes over produces a run to account for defects)
4) One of the first 3,000 with the numbered stocks
5) One of the guns shipped to Bekeart before becoming a S&W catalogued item (Prior to serial range 160,000)
6) One of the guns shipped to Bekeart as a S&W catalogued item (After serial range 160,000)

As for additional information regarding serial numbers and stock numbers, I own serial number 138289 that just happens to have stock number 289, the last three digits of the serial number. Of the six shipments to Bekeart from June 7 to October 13, mine was shipped in the forth shipment on June 30 and was one of 60 pieces in that shipment. Numerically, it is number 152 as it is the second serial number in shipment 4 with the first 3 shipments being 30 pieces, 60 pieces and 60 pieces.

As an aside, there were guns shipped with lower serial numbers after mine and guns shipped with higher serial numbers before mine. 138294 went out in the first shipment on June 7 and 138265 went out in the last shipment on October 13, 1911.

As Roy has stated numerous times, S&W was in the business of making and selling a product. It is we collectors that need everything tied up in neat little packages and want things to make sense. S&W just wanted to make money. (and they made a boat load of that)

 

[MrSurly]

As the original poster of this thread, I must try to catch up, here.
First, I'm happy to see that there remains interest in these old revolvers.
I must admit that no, I have not YET sent the form to Mr. Jinks about this gun. I will, I AM going to.
Life has a way of interfering with events and this has been way-back-burner-ed for me.
I still have the gun and will send the pics to him along with the funds to get it lettered.

After re-reading all of this, I can't miss the impression that it seems to be understood that the first 3000 of the 22/32HFTs were provided with numbered grips.
It also seems understood what the serial numbers of the first two thousand or so revolvers were...
But it has apparently not yet been established what the serial number range(s) of the third thousand or so should be.

It remains intriguing, at least to me.
Hopefully, Mr Jinks can shed some light on the serial number of the three-thousandth 22/32 HFT.

Cheers!

Ricky

 

[JSR III]

I too love these guns and am bringing this thread back up again. I mis stated a figure in my last post as that number has been established for so long it just rolls off my fingers. Bekeart received 294 guns not 292. This is a recent correction after going back into the records and doing extensive research by our fearless leader.

The six Bekeart shipments were June 7-30 pieces, June 22-60 pieces, June 28-60 pieces, June 30-60 pieces, August 31-50 pieces and October 13-34 pieces. Hence 294 guns shipped.

To clarify, the guns were not assembled in any serial number order. They were in fact assembled by stock sequence number. In other words, the first .22/32 HFT assembled bears stock sequence number 1 on the bottom of the left stock panel but there is no way of knowing what serial number that gun has as that information was not recorded.

The guns shipped to Bekeart in the first 6 shipments shown above all fall between 138,227 and 139,275.

The lowest know serial number is 138,226 but did not go to Bekeart.

The second 1,000 guns produced appear to be in the 163,000 range with the lowest number in my database being 163,198.

The third 1,000 guns produced appear to be in the 207,000 range with my lowest recorded gun being 207,998.

139,262 has stock sequence number 1016, 163,198 has stock sequence number 1168 and 207,998 has stock sequence number 2117. This would seem to indicate that the first 1,000 were in the 138,000 to 139,000 range, the second 1,000 were in the 163,000 to 164,000 range and the third 1,000 were in the 207,000 to 208,000 range. 208,403 is my highest serial number with a stock sequence number and that number is 2398.

Following those I have serial numbers recorded in the 220,000, 230,000, 240,000, 250,000, 270,000 290,000 360,000, 380,000, 408,000 409,000, 420,000, 440,000, 495,000, 525,000, 533,000 and 534,000 ranges. Recessed chambers occured somewhere around 525,600. The first one I have recorded is 525,991 shipped in December of 1931.

534,506 (the highest number I have recorded) was shipped in June of 1940.

Just to reiterate that serial numbers are all over, 525,730 shipped in December of 1933 and 525,991 shipped in December of 1931.

The stock sequence number is stamped on the left stock panel and the serial number is penciled on the right stock panel.

I hope this clarifys some of the questions about Bekearts or .22/32 HFT's, if not, ask away and we will continue our education.