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Sorry for the misinformation on the SN range for the numbered stocks, always learning new information.
A New Guy and a Bekeart. A Real One?
- Thread starter MrSurly
- Start date
MrSurly,
as pointed out above, I too have never seen a Left Panel Grip with the serial # penciled on it. It is always just the right grip in my experience. That yours is on the left panel too tells me that it was put there by someone other than the factory after the fact.
Now will I say 100% positive on this? NO, but I would not pay a premium for it as It is a Question mark on the originality of the grips that you will always have to defend.
JMO
Dan
as pointed out above, I too have never seen a Left Panel Grip with the serial # penciled on it. It is always just the right grip in my experience. That yours is on the left panel too tells me that it was put there by someone other than the factory after the fact.
Now will I say 100% positive on this? NO, but I would not pay a premium for it as It is a Question mark on the originality of the grips that you will always have to defend.
JMO
Dan
You have just described the collectors nemesis about S&W assembly/shipping of products perfectly and are no longer a virgin. We've all had our bubble burst when we 1st realized as Roy Jinks always says: S&W was in business to make a good product and a profit, not to make it easy for we collectors. However, your comment; "Grips are not usually numbered" may be generalized for all brands but not true for S&W which religiously numbered the right grip (not both however) on pre-war guns.
Masterpiece
Member
Bekeart,
Here's another "Lettered" Early Bekeart for your Data Base. Serial Number 138911 w/707 Numbered Grips. Shipped August 1,1911 to E.K.Tryon Co. Philadelphia,Pa.
Masterpiece
Here's another "Lettered" Early Bekeart for your Data Base. Serial Number 138911 w/707 Numbered Grips. Shipped August 1,1911 to E.K.Tryon Co. Philadelphia,Pa.
Masterpiece
Point taken, my meaning was that in normal practice, grips didn't come from the 'wood shop' pre-serialized and the penciled number was done in the gunshop.
Warning: My supposition only>>>
The difference here being that the wood shop actually numbered these with the stamp before delivery to the gunshop. HOWEVER,
the gunshop people paid no heed to the numbers on the wood as they selected a pair to install.
Tell if that makes sense?
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I note with some curiosity that the stamped stock number is on the left grip half...and the reported usual location of the penciled number is on the right half. Maybe they decided to put it on the left BECAUSE of the stamped number!
Yeah, I know, just being silly with that.
Seriously, folks...
In one post I'm told that the penciled number PROVES nothing.
Yet other posts say the number (on a low-number gun) proves it's original.
In another, I'm told it PROVES a fake.
Y'all confused as I?
Yeah, I know, just being silly with that.
Seriously, folks...
In one post I'm told that the penciled number PROVES nothing.
Yet other posts say the number (on a low-number gun) proves it's original.
In another, I'm told it PROVES a fake.
Y'all confused as I?
Not at all. This is not a science and there are not always absolute answers. Your gun has been evaluated with fairly high certainty. It may not be what you wanted to hear but it will not get any better unless more facts come to light; it is what it is.
You've received the best plausible facts and experienced opinions from some of the most knowledgeable S&W collectors who have spent years collecting data, studying and sharing information and time free of charge. But they are not clairvoyant and they do not have to agree. That is the world of collecting. What you do with it is up to you.
You can re-read and try to clarify to yourself what you've been sincerely offered in good faith. You can also seek more data in the SCSW, the 3rd edition being the most complete but no source will have a definitive answer and certainly not equal to this forum's cumulative knowledge.
I brought out my bekeart and my SN is 1632XX afterall and my grip number is 1255. I took off my grips to check for the right grip SN and the numbers apparently have been smudged by oil or some cleaning solvent which dripped into the grips. I could make out 16- then nothing. I say they're original!
My take on what's been covered so far:
First, let me say THANKS! to all who have responded, a big thank you! My quest for info continues.
My true goal here is merely facts. I'm not in denial nor am I harboring crazy ideas about special collector Holy Grail. EVERY bit of input is helpful in this search. I am only looking to gain whatever reasonable certainty as can be attained when dealing with hundred-year mysteries.
My follow-up WILL be to get the 'letter' from Mr. Jinks that I've been reading about. Obviously, I don't know if he has the info on this gun, but I'm hopin'! From the replies here and things I've read elsewhere I've come to a couple of conclusions, I'll see if I can convey them here and you guys will straighten me out.
I am aware that this IS NOT a "True Bekeart".
The concern at hand (for me) is whether this gun is in fact one of the 3000 numbered first-issue Bekearts as implied by the grip stamp.
Please understand that I know that this determination is of no real import to the rest of the world but it matters to me; not as an advocate for it, but because...
as Ernest Robinson so aptly put it: "Mistuh?....I gots ta know."
Among the collector-types here, surely you guys understand my need to figure these little details!
There seems to be a 'common knowledge' about these guns that is based on reasonable certainty of the ship dates and serial number ranges for the first run of a thousand and then for the second run of a thousand. The implication would be that there's a thousand piece run not accounted for, wouldn't it?
In almost every case, this knowledge (1st run, 2nd run) is the exclusive basis of the determination that this gun cant be real, because the serial is too high to fit into the known serial ranges.
Am I correct so far?
Well, if each run was approximately 1000 pieces.. #2117 could not belong in those runs, right?
Wouldn't 2117 HAVE to be in the Third run?
As "Bekeart" pointed out, does anyone know the dates or serials for the third run?
I can sense the eyes rolling and the "Oh fer Chrisakes!" reactions out there...
I'm not looking for some special dispensation to make a wrong gun 'real'. I'm actually just looking for the history to make some sort of sense.
If there were only two runs of 1000 each 'known'....then there HAD to be a third run, right? (if there were 3000 total)
Summary
I hope Mr. Jinks can lift the veil and maybe explain the timing of the 3rd run, if there was one!
I am willing to accept that the gun is wrong once I'm shown something concrete. In my opinion, we're not quite concrete at this point.
Reasons cited for rejection:
1.The left grip is numbered.
Unusual, no doubt, but exclusionary? if the serial question did not exist? I just can't buy that...convince me.
2.Serial doesn't fit in the range for the 1st 1000.
This one's numbered over 2000, this fits.
3.Serial doesn't fit in the range for the 2nd 1000.
This one's numbered over 2000, this fits.
Still diggin'!
First, let me say THANKS! to all who have responded, a big thank you! My quest for info continues.
My true goal here is merely facts. I'm not in denial nor am I harboring crazy ideas about special collector Holy Grail. EVERY bit of input is helpful in this search. I am only looking to gain whatever reasonable certainty as can be attained when dealing with hundred-year mysteries.
My follow-up WILL be to get the 'letter' from Mr. Jinks that I've been reading about. Obviously, I don't know if he has the info on this gun, but I'm hopin'! From the replies here and things I've read elsewhere I've come to a couple of conclusions, I'll see if I can convey them here and you guys will straighten me out.
I am aware that this IS NOT a "True Bekeart".
The concern at hand (for me) is whether this gun is in fact one of the 3000 numbered first-issue Bekearts as implied by the grip stamp.
Please understand that I know that this determination is of no real import to the rest of the world but it matters to me; not as an advocate for it, but because...
as Ernest Robinson so aptly put it: "Mistuh?....I gots ta know."
Among the collector-types here, surely you guys understand my need to figure these little details!
There seems to be a 'common knowledge' about these guns that is based on reasonable certainty of the ship dates and serial number ranges for the first run of a thousand and then for the second run of a thousand. The implication would be that there's a thousand piece run not accounted for, wouldn't it?
In almost every case, this knowledge (1st run, 2nd run) is the exclusive basis of the determination that this gun cant be real, because the serial is too high to fit into the known serial ranges.
Am I correct so far?
Well, if each run was approximately 1000 pieces.. #2117 could not belong in those runs, right?
Wouldn't 2117 HAVE to be in the Third run?
As "Bekeart" pointed out, does anyone know the dates or serials for the third run?
I can sense the eyes rolling and the "Oh fer Chrisakes!" reactions out there...
I'm not looking for some special dispensation to make a wrong gun 'real'. I'm actually just looking for the history to make some sort of sense.
If there were only two runs of 1000 each 'known'....then there HAD to be a third run, right? (if there were 3000 total)
Summary
I hope Mr. Jinks can lift the veil and maybe explain the timing of the 3rd run, if there was one!
I am willing to accept that the gun is wrong once I'm shown something concrete. In my opinion, we're not quite concrete at this point.
Reasons cited for rejection:
1.The left grip is numbered.
Unusual, no doubt, but exclusionary? if the serial question did not exist? I just can't buy that...convince me.
2.Serial doesn't fit in the range for the 1st 1000.
This one's numbered over 2000, this fits.
3.Serial doesn't fit in the range for the 2nd 1000.
This one's numbered over 2000, this fits.
Still diggin'!
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Engine49guy
Member
The truest "Bekeart" is one that letters as shipped to the man himself.
In their 2nd edition of the SCSW Supica and Nahas state that although it is arguable
"There are at least four levels of "Bekeartness".
1, First Bekeart shipment.
2, First Bekeart pattern production run.
3, Bekeart grip numbered revolvers.
4,"Bekeart shipped 22/32 HE's from later production.
They go into it a bit further in SCSW 2nd ed. page 85 and also say that Roy Jinks wrote an article on the matter that was "published in the journal of the SCWA,reprinted beginning at page 158 of book 1 of the 25th anniversary reprint" .
Does anyone have a copy off this article ?
On a side note,
I inherited 138437 grip number 567 that I have been told is one of a few that although is in the serial range of first shipment did not go to Mr Bekeart .
Using the above scale it is a level 2 First Bekeart pattern production run 22/32 HE.
While the only thing that will solve the riddle is a factory letter yours appears to be at least a level 3 if not a level 4.
If your gun does end up lettering as shipped to Mr Bekeart from later production...IMHO your gun would have a higher level of true "Bekeartness" than mine.
Very interesting firearm ....Good luck !
In their 2nd edition of the SCSW Supica and Nahas state that although it is arguable
"There are at least four levels of "Bekeartness".
1, First Bekeart shipment.
2, First Bekeart pattern production run.
3, Bekeart grip numbered revolvers.
4,"Bekeart shipped 22/32 HE's from later production.
They go into it a bit further in SCSW 2nd ed. page 85 and also say that Roy Jinks wrote an article on the matter that was "published in the journal of the SCWA,reprinted beginning at page 158 of book 1 of the 25th anniversary reprint" .
Does anyone have a copy off this article ?
On a side note,
I inherited 138437 grip number 567 that I have been told is one of a few that although is in the serial range of first shipment did not go to Mr Bekeart .
Using the above scale it is a level 2 First Bekeart pattern production run 22/32 HE.
While the only thing that will solve the riddle is a factory letter yours appears to be at least a level 3 if not a level 4.
If your gun does end up lettering as shipped to Mr Bekeart from later production...IMHO your gun would have a higher level of true "Bekeartness" than mine.
Very interesting firearm ....Good luck !
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Since the barrel is definitely not original, one wonders how much other work to the gun has been performed. Since the barrel was replaced, IMO, its not out of the question for the gun to be reblued, replaced grips, action work etc. I'm not saying yours has all of this work done, but on the other hand there is a distinct possibility that someone got a gun with a barrel bulge for a song and a dance that didn't have grips and then some ambitious fellow tried to bring it back as a shooter or to make money. Of course, it wouldn't be profitable to do today but who knows what happened in the guns life. I think the left grip is written on with some kind of fraud in mind because if one was trying to bring the gun back to a shooting state (barrel is replaced) there would be no need to write the number on the left or right grip. Furthermore, I never saw a left grip SN as others have said. S&Ws quality control at that time was strict enough to where most of the guns from that time still work great today after many thousands of rounds. They paid attention to every detail of each gun. Just look at the craftsmanship of anything before WWII from S&W, truly amazing guns.
I think your gun, overall, was someone's "resurrection" project and that overall, they did a good job. I don't think its some kind of left grip inexplicable anomaly because surely others would have surfaced by now. Who ever would have made the error would have done it more than once if they got away with this one leaving the factory as is. Just my 2 cents.
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daybreak10
Member
S&W 22/32
I have on that is original and serial numbered
139006 with grips stamped on the bottom 692?
was this on of the first so called runs of this Model
I have on that is original and serial numbered
139006 with grips stamped on the bottom 692?
was this on of the first so called runs of this Model
bmg60
Member
HI
I can tell you that in the factory shipping records the grip number is not listed. there was a thread a few years ago on the grip serial number thing and I think at that time roy said that there is not a connection between the grip number and the serial number.
so a factory letter will tell you three things.
1. when the gun was shipped.
2. where it was shipped.
3. how it was configured. blue, barrel length, grips.
if you send for a letter send copys of all the pictures with it
and then roy will tell you what the B inside a diamond means,
and that it has the new style ejector rod on it.
if it was a factory rework it should have had a date on it.
maybe the factory missed putting a date on it.
just my 2 cents worth.
jim fisher.
I can tell you that in the factory shipping records the grip number is not listed. there was a thread a few years ago on the grip serial number thing and I think at that time roy said that there is not a connection between the grip number and the serial number.
so a factory letter will tell you three things.
1. when the gun was shipped.
2. where it was shipped.
3. how it was configured. blue, barrel length, grips.
if you send for a letter send copys of all the pictures with it
and then roy will tell you what the B inside a diamond means,
and that it has the new style ejector rod on it.
if it was a factory rework it should have had a date on it.
maybe the factory missed putting a date on it.
just my 2 cents worth.
jim fisher.
Yes it is one of the first production run in 1911.
Yes it is from the 1911 production.
Production 1911 138226 -139257
Jinks p 151 / 1031 pieces?
Bekeart
Yes it is from the 1911 production.
Production 1911 138226 -139257
Jinks p 151 / 1031 pieces?
Bekeart
A question for Bekeart: (OK, two) reading your earlier posts, you reference a large shipment to "Robinson" and listed serial numbers that would include my 207998. Two questions:
1. Do you believe that the Robinson order was filled with the "third thousand' or Third run of Bekeart production?
2. Do you believe, based on serial number alone, that it is POSSIBLE that my gun was a legitimate part of the third run?
BMG60,
Jim, thanks for your input. I am fully aware as I stated in post #30 that the barrel has been replaced. I am also aware that the B-in-a-diamond means (guess what) that the barrel has been replaced.
I am fairly sure that the fact that the barrel has been replaced doesn't, by itself, mean that the gun must not be original in any other aspect. I will look it over even more closely to search again for any date or stars etc. I am readying the letter at this time! I am hoping Mr. Jinks can shed some light on it all. I know that he can't provide any info on the grip numbers, but I am really hopeful that he can determine by production records if it is one of the first 3000 22/32s built.
Goring's S&W:
A resurrection? Somewhat harsh, eh? You've gone to a lot of trouble creating a scenario whereby a new barrel begets a sordid affair of missing parts, unscrupulous owners, number-forgers and a junkyard-magnet's parts assemblage! All this to discredit an old gun that could possibly yet prove to be legit; save for the now-well-documented barrel swap. Your effort to dispose of this gun reads like you are somewhat threatened by it. I truly don't get that.
My understanding (please provide the correction) is this: The fact remains that the serial number groups that are known, are supposedly for the first TWO thousand and the whereabouts and the disposition the last (lost???) thousand is still open. It is possible that this piece might actually be a significant clue about that run. Or it might just be a junkyard dog.
1. Do you believe that the Robinson order was filled with the "third thousand' or Third run of Bekeart production?
2. Do you believe, based on serial number alone, that it is POSSIBLE that my gun was a legitimate part of the third run?
BMG60,
Jim, thanks for your input. I am fully aware as I stated in post #30 that the barrel has been replaced. I am also aware that the B-in-a-diamond means (guess what) that the barrel has been replaced.
I am fairly sure that the fact that the barrel has been replaced doesn't, by itself, mean that the gun must not be original in any other aspect. I will look it over even more closely to search again for any date or stars etc. I am readying the letter at this time! I am hoping Mr. Jinks can shed some light on it all. I know that he can't provide any info on the grip numbers, but I am really hopeful that he can determine by production records if it is one of the first 3000 22/32s built.
Goring's S&W:
A resurrection? Somewhat harsh, eh? You've gone to a lot of trouble creating a scenario whereby a new barrel begets a sordid affair of missing parts, unscrupulous owners, number-forgers and a junkyard-magnet's parts assemblage! All this to discredit an old gun that could possibly yet prove to be legit; save for the now-well-documented barrel swap. Your effort to dispose of this gun reads like you are somewhat threatened by it. I truly don't get that.
My understanding (please provide the correction) is this: The fact remains that the serial number groups that are known, are supposedly for the first TWO thousand and the whereabouts and the disposition the last (lost???) thousand is still open. It is possible that this piece might actually be a significant clue about that run. Or it might just be a junkyard dog.
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More data points, i.e., serial numbers and shipping dates will only come with time and patience. And as was said, get a letter. That's the only place left to dig and then maybe you can contribute a data point as well.
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Get in touch with Mr. Jinks about 207998
Get in touch with Mr. Jinks about 207998
Two Questions - One Answer: I don't know.
My note about the serial numbers for the M.W. Robins order:
Looked further in the collected notes and found this clarification.
Get in touch with Mr. Jinks about 207998
Bekeart
Get in touch with Mr. Jinks about 207998
Two Questions - One Answer: I don't know.
My note about the serial numbers for the M.W. Robins order:
got me to thinking. Why would this order be in sequential serial number order when the order to Phil Bekeart was NOT in sequential serial number order.
Looked further in the collected notes and found this clarification.
Get in touch with Mr. Jinks about 207998
Bekeart
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daybreak10
Member
S&W 22/32
this Piece and would like to trade it for another S&W that is could
Target shot with
Thank You for the reply and info, actually I have no interest in
this Piece and would like to trade it for another S&W that is could
Target shot with
PM sent. I would like more info on your gun. Thanks
