A Nice New Model Number Three
- Thread starter Driftwood Johnson
- Start date
Sure its your gun, I never suggested otherwise.
It may not be a museum piece either but as someone else posted its pretty unusual to see a blued pistol from that time period in that condition and like it or not every time you shoot/disassemble a 100+ yr old firearm in that condition you degrade it.
Personally I have owned quite a few original Model #3 S@W pistols from that era and I have never felt the need to shoot or disassemble any of them. That's what refinished shooter grade pistols are for....and there are plenty of them out there.
Sorry for the soapbox rant.
Over and out, Ed
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OP
Driftwood Johnson
Member
Please explain how careful disassembly by someone who knows what they are doing, and shooting low powered Black Powder loads that the gun was designed for, followed by proper cleaning, will degrade it.
OP
Driftwood Johnson
Member
Howdy Again
I sent off the request for a letter yesterday, so hopefully I will find out more about this revolve soon. When I get the letter, I will post what I have learned.
I sent off the request for a letter yesterday, so hopefully I will find out more about this revolve soon. When I get the letter, I will post what I have learned.
otteray
Member
Great, informative thread!
Among a batch of old BP cartridge firearms I received from my late father's estate, is a New Model Number 3. He had written an article for Handloader, about loads (BP and smokeless) for it back in '92; but I don't know if it was ever printed.
I just ordered four lbs of black, FF and FFF. I've loaded smokeless in other guns for years and this will be my first time with BP since shooting it with Dad in the late 1960s, as a little kid, out in the Mojave Desert.
SN 243XX manufactured 1896, I was told.
Among a batch of old BP cartridge firearms I received from my late father's estate, is a New Model Number 3. He had written an article for Handloader, about loads (BP and smokeless) for it back in '92; but I don't know if it was ever printed.
I just ordered four lbs of black, FF and FFF. I've loaded smokeless in other guns for years and this will be my first time with BP since shooting it with Dad in the late 1960s, as a little kid, out in the Mojave Desert.
SN 243XX manufactured 1896, I was told.
Attachments
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OP
Driftwood Johnson
Member
Howdy Again
Well, the letter arrived today. Just over two weeks, not bad. Yes, it was part of a large shipment to Japan, and yes, it shipped with the butt swivel in place. I asked about the mark near the butt swivel, and included a photo, but there was no mention of that.
Well, the letter arrived today. Just over two weeks, not bad. Yes, it was part of a large shipment to Japan, and yes, it shipped with the butt swivel in place. I asked about the mark near the butt swivel, and included a photo, but there was no mention of that.
Masterpiece
Member
Hi Chip,
Thanks so much for posting the results of Your Research Letter...Looks like Roy's Original 30+yr old research info still holds true!!
As far as the Stamp located on the Butt near the Butt Swivel...As I noted in our earlier communications...Likely a Japanese Arsenal Inspectors Stamp not often seen on S&W Revolvers shipped to Japan during that period!!
Very curious about serial number to shipping dates. I just checked a few letters.
347xx .44 Standard configuration, shipped on August 7, 1899 to Takata, Yokohama, Japan
... then ...
346xx .44 Target Model, shipped August 14, 1907 to Von Lengerke & Antoine Co. Chicago.
New Model 3 .44 Target (numbered in the regular NM3 serial number range) shipped in 1907 is exactly 168 serial number LOWER than the one shipped to Japan in 1899.
It is researched written and accepted that the Japanese Contract guns were numbered within the standard numbering system for the New Model 3s. As we've studied, Japanese guns did not have their own serial number range like the Frontiers, or .32 &.38-44 Target series, etc
Perhaps some Japanese NM3s were shipped in a separate SN range ? I wonder. I guess that's a question for Roy.
8 years later shipped USA at 168 serial numbers LOWER than one shipped to Japan is sure odd.
Another S&W enigma that requires further research.
347xx .44 Standard configuration, shipped on August 7, 1899 to Takata, Yokohama, Japan
... then ...
346xx .44 Target Model, shipped August 14, 1907 to Von Lengerke & Antoine Co. Chicago.
New Model 3 .44 Target (numbered in the regular NM3 serial number range) shipped in 1907 is exactly 168 serial number LOWER than the one shipped to Japan in 1899.
It is researched written and accepted that the Japanese Contract guns were numbered within the standard numbering system for the New Model 3s. As we've studied, Japanese guns did not have their own serial number range like the Frontiers, or .32 &.38-44 Target series, etc
Perhaps some Japanese NM3s were shipped in a separate SN range ? I wonder. I guess that's a question for Roy.
8 years later shipped USA at 168 serial numbers LOWER than one shipped to Japan is sure odd.
Another S&W enigma that requires further research.
Masterpiece
Member
Sal,
It's been well known...For some time now..."Very" Large Numbers of the Japanese Shipped NM#3s were pulled from Pre-Existing Inventory as part of a clean-up of those Revolvers that hadn't been selling well at the time lying stagnant on Inventory Shelves!!
Meaning there is no rhyme or reason as to any given Serial No. Range they may fall into given they were pulled at random from the vault...Some being pulled in order (Some Not)...That explains the reason for Shipping Dates for these Revolvers being spread across such a broad range in no specific order!! Hope this helps!!
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Your point is taken as the standard given reason for such in S&W SN to ship date inconsistencies but this is just a "little" outside the box.
8 years later, a lower SN ships is something that certainly sparks my curiosity.
Other NM3 Targets shipped to USA and England seem to that follow a more consistent serial number / date sequence with one or two odd shipments that are a 1 year off, but 8 years I find curious.
Then again most of the SNs I have to compare are Target .44s.
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Masterpiece
Member
Sal,
I agree... Although this could also possibly mean those Target .44s you've noted having a Lower Serial Number & shipped later...May already have been built in that configuration lying in inventory...Of which the Japanese had no interest & were passed over for the Std. Configuration NM#3s in Inventory they wanted!!
And concerning the other NM#3 .44 Targets you noted...These very well could have been built from Frames not yet pulled from bins containing previously Serial-Numbered Frames for Special Orders!!
Regardless...Being none of us were there to know for certain what was what...I'm sure the answer will never be known with any degree of certainty...Just An Opinion!!
Sal, we must always remember that S&W's were not assembled in a strict 1-100 serial number order. Assemblers worked on piece work and some were probably faster than others. The 10 or 20 pieces that each assembler had to work with were not necessarily in sequential order nor finished in sequential order. As these guns were completed they then went off to be finished, reassembled, boxed and stored.
When a shipment was put together, there was no effort made to take the guns from the vault in any numerical order and it stands to reason that a lower numbered gun could be stored under a pile of higher numbered guns or behind same in the pile. As guns for a shipment were removed for shipping and the inventory started getting low it is likely that a new run would be completed and possibly stored on top of the few that were still remaining. If this process were repeated a few times it is understandable how a low serial numbered gun could ship weeks, months or even years after a higher one.
It is only we collectors that want these guns to have shipped in some numerical order that makes sense. As far as the company was concerned, as long as they filled an order for 100 guns with 100 guns, it made absolutely no difference what the serial numbers were and they were only recorded going out the door as a way to keep track of the inventory.
The company was more concerned in getting $$$ for the 100 guns than whether they numbered from 1 - 100.
These are my opinions and thoughts and I have no empirical evidence other than what I have read to base this on.
When a shipment was put together, there was no effort made to take the guns from the vault in any numerical order and it stands to reason that a lower numbered gun could be stored under a pile of higher numbered guns or behind same in the pile. As guns for a shipment were removed for shipping and the inventory started getting low it is likely that a new run would be completed and possibly stored on top of the few that were still remaining. If this process were repeated a few times it is understandable how a low serial numbered gun could ship weeks, months or even years after a higher one.
It is only we collectors that want these guns to have shipped in some numerical order that makes sense. As far as the company was concerned, as long as they filled an order for 100 guns with 100 guns, it made absolutely no difference what the serial numbers were and they were only recorded going out the door as a way to keep track of the inventory.
The company was more concerned in getting $$$ for the 100 guns than whether they numbered from 1 - 100.
These are my opinions and thoughts and I have no empirical evidence other than what I have read to base this on.
Jim,
I thought I got my interest stated properly but you're missing it. What this may be is a new discovery, aside from the standard answer of why the serial number to ship dates don't always jive.
I'm asking for help to collect data.
What it is looking like by logical progression is that the .44 Targets, no matter when shipped seem to be in a close or near order all by themselves but when compared to the standard configuration NM3 sent to Japan, it's not working. It may also be a difference in large contracts outside the USA vs USA shipped or perhaps maybe the .44 Target versions.
All I indicated is that it is "curious". I'd like to research this further collecting SNs and ship dates of all .44's except Japan (which is pretty well covered) and other NM3s with their own SN ranges even if others are content with it as it stands, i would like to undertake the task.
We may be on the verge of a new discovery on this subject or at least a topic for further banter.
All 6 or my .44 Target models and my one .45 S&W Target model .. ALL have serial number to ship date records that coordinate. They just don't compare with (at least) the Japanese shipments.
With members' assistance, I would like undertake research to compare all .44 Target configurations to USA shipped standard configurations.
Of 35,796 New Model 3s manufactured about 1/3 went to Japan per SCSW4 page 116 with serial number batches on page 118. That comes out to just about 11,932 +/- went to Japan.
This leaves 23,864 +/- for all other New Model 3s other than those in their own SN range, e.g.except Frontier, Turkish, 38 Winchester and .32-44 / .38-44 Target range.
The .44 Targets produced were in the standard production Serial Number range with scattered numbers but seem more prevalent at appx 25xxx and up.
Presuming Ray Brazille and other sources are correct, every .44 or .45 Target (or any odd caliber) was a special order, not a cataloged item of it's own. Period advertising to 1888 (oldest I have) offers it with Target sights available but not offered as its own model / version. How many of these stayed in the USA is anyone's guess. How many still survive is still unknown.
I thought I got my interest stated properly but you're missing it. What this may be is a new discovery, aside from the standard answer of why the serial number to ship dates don't always jive.
I'm asking for help to collect data.
What it is looking like by logical progression is that the .44 Targets, no matter when shipped seem to be in a close or near order all by themselves but when compared to the standard configuration NM3 sent to Japan, it's not working. It may also be a difference in large contracts outside the USA vs USA shipped or perhaps maybe the .44 Target versions.
All I indicated is that it is "curious". I'd like to research this further collecting SNs and ship dates of all .44's except Japan (which is pretty well covered) and other NM3s with their own SN ranges even if others are content with it as it stands, i would like to undertake the task.
We may be on the verge of a new discovery on this subject or at least a topic for further banter.
All 6 or my .44 Target models and my one .45 S&W Target model .. ALL have serial number to ship date records that coordinate. They just don't compare with (at least) the Japanese shipments.
With members' assistance, I would like undertake research to compare all .44 Target configurations to USA shipped standard configurations.
Of 35,796 New Model 3s manufactured about 1/3 went to Japan per SCSW4 page 116 with serial number batches on page 118. That comes out to just about 11,932 +/- went to Japan.
This leaves 23,864 +/- for all other New Model 3s other than those in their own SN range, e.g.except Frontier, Turkish, 38 Winchester and .32-44 / .38-44 Target range.
The .44 Targets produced were in the standard production Serial Number range with scattered numbers but seem more prevalent at appx 25xxx and up.
Presuming Ray Brazille and other sources are correct, every .44 or .45 Target (or any odd caliber) was a special order, not a cataloged item of it's own. Period advertising to 1888 (oldest I have) offers it with Target sights available but not offered as its own model / version. How many of these stayed in the USA is anyone's guess. How many still survive is still unknown.
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Sal, I was trying to offer a possible answer for your first statement above regarding an 8 year gap.
The only other thought that I can offer is that sometimes guns were handed out to magazine writers or other such persons and didn't find their way back into inventory for extended periods. That's all I got.
Sal, I was trying to offer a possible answer for your first statement above regarding an 8 year gap.
The only other thought that I can offer is that sometimes guns were handed out to magazine writers or other such persons and didn't find their way back into inventory for extended periods. That's all I got.
Jim, It's all 7 big bore target models that all work out in logical order but out of sequence with either the entire standard production of just the Japanese contract guns.
Will you guys help by EMAILING me data on New Model 3s (all except Japanese and Turkish contracts, 38 Winchester, 32-44 Target and .38-44 Targets (unless SN is higher than 4333 as I have seen a few in the 32xxx range, I have also seen some in the 4000 range with very late ship dates, too) and Frontier (44-40s) as follows:
Serial Number:
Target sights(and if so what type) or standard;
Rebounding or Non-Rebounding hammer
Caliber (.44S&W Russian or .45 / 450 & .455 British)
Barrel Length and
Finish
Ship Date (state whether from letter or ship date request) and
Shipped to where (if lettered)
I'll start another blog. Email me the SNs if you don't want to post you number to you on here, I will just do the entire SN with no name to keep a personal research record to share with whomever helps or post it, with your permission.
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