A Nice New Model Number Three

[mmaher94087]

I love these old Japanese provenance revolvers. I have serial number 31074 cylinder stuffed into serial number 25625 frame and barrel. The Japanese Armorers at that time didn't care and the quality of the S&W #3 was so tight that it didn't matter. Nice find.

 

[model3sw]

" I " am the guy who stated I would not ever clean my Model 3s with water. Even though I'm set in my ways, I have read all the input and constructive banter.

I have used Ballistol mixture(s) in the distant past and the mix is OK, I just cringe with soap and water or water mixed into the Ballistol. The few rare times in the past I had ever used a Ballistol and water mixture to clean ... I blew out all excess with compressed air and then submerged the frame and parts in Corrosion-x for a few days before blowing out again then assembling.

When I shoot smokeless loads, the clean up is a snap.

I'd like to add to your post that it is refreshing that someone actually purchased and posted a nice "clean" and righteous New Model 3 in the forum. (sound of applause in the background)

A little bit of blue wear is normal and expected but excellent mechanical condition is premier to me.

Congrats on a nice find.

 

[iby]

nm3 lanyard ring "boss"

My Japanese shipped nm3 has the serial# under it with the first digit visible in the same position as the one shown

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

model3sw:

Generally speaking when Ballistol is added to water, it is done at about 10% Ballistol to 90% water. In the CAS world this is usually known as Moose Milk, because the Ballistol does not completely mix with the water but remains as an emulsion, with a milky color. The idea behind cleaning with Moose Milk is the same as cleaning with Murphy's Mix. When the water, which performs the brunt of dissolving the BP fouling, evaporates, the Ballistol will remain behind, coating the parts and protecting them from rust.

Some BP guys like to clean with straight Ballistol. I don't clean with Ballistol because it is cheaper to make up my Murphy's Mix, and I believe all the water in Murphy's Mix dissolves BP fouling better than straight Ballistol does. Moose Milk, with it's larger percentage of water will also dissolve BP fouling better than straight Ballistol.

I have never used Moose Milk, I like to clean with Murphy's Mix.

I understand your trepidation about leaving any of the water inside your guns, but as I have said several times, my experinece has been that the oil, either Ballistol or Murphy's Oil Soap, will remain behind when the water evaporates and will protect the metal from rusting. It will also combine with any fouling that makes its way into the works, rendering it harmless and unable to cause rust.

That has been my experience for quite a while now in quite a few guns.

 

[Masterpiece]

I have serial number 31074 cylinder stuffed into serial number 25625 frame and barrel.

Hi Mike,

Just curious...Did yours letter as being shipped to Takata on Aug. 12th,1896??

 

[Masterpiece]

Here is a photo of the SN on the butt of my new NM#3. There is clearly something marked to the left of the lanyard ring boss, or whatever it's called. However looking at this photo, the marking almost looks like a proof mark of some type to me. My brain is trying to make it look like a winged eagle with a sideways letter A over the top.

What do you think?

Driftwood,

First off...Thanks for posting the photo...Appreciate it!! Tough call on the stamping beside the Lanyard Ring Base...Even though I can't readily identify it as being Japanese...Given the photo doesn't show the detail of the stamp very well...I do believe it to have Japanese Provenance likely placed there in one of the Japanese Arsenals!!

I will say this...You can be very well assured it's not the remnants of the Original Serial No.!!

I will take a look into the Stamping a bit further to see if I can readily verify it as being Japanese...And if that's possible...I'll get back to you & let you now what I come up with!! Reason being...Given it's a bit hard to discern some of these Japanese Characters it may take a bit..So be patient!!

 

[model3sw]

Masterpiece:

Here is a photo of the SN on the butt of my new NM#3. I have altered the last two digits of the SN, but you get the idea. There is clearly something marked to the left of the lanyard ring boss, or whatever it's called. When Don looked at it he thought it was the remnants of the original SN that had been polished away before the current SN was marked. I could not see well enough to make it out. However looking at this photo, the marking almost looks like a proof mark of some type to me. My brain is trying to make it look like a winged eagle with a sideways letter A over the top.

What do you think?

Just for the heck of it, here is the legend on top of the barrel rib. No blue left in this area.

There is also a small trademark on the right side of the frame. Other than the SNs on the rear of the cylinder, and the latch, this is all the markings on the outside of the gun.

When these were ordered with the Lanyard the serial number on the butt was placed in this position. Only when a gun that was already manufactured without a lanyard was sent back to the factory to have the lanyard added ... or ... S&W needed to fill and order fast, took a completed, non-lanyard, NM3 from stock to add the lanyard prior to shipping ... will you see the remnants of the lengthwise serial number and the perpendicular serial number.

This one was ordered with a lanyard. Although it looks like a US lanyard, the Japanese orders usually had a circular ring more than the D shaped ring but there's no formal rule on the type of lanyard.

Then, major dealers / distributors would add a lanyard to a S&W if the customer wanted one and they did not have a factory lanyard model in stock. I have seen many Americans to New Model 3s (mostly Americans and Russian contract REISSUE guns) with a dealer added lanyard. Many of these with dealer added lanyard were originally shipped to M.W. Robinson, NYC or SH&G (H&G). Those with the later added lanyard by the dealer, would not have the serial number restamped in the perpendicular position. The serial number would just be partly hidden by the lanyard. Even when the serial number on the butt is obscured by a dealer added lanyard, you still have 3 more areas to check if ... at least those numbers you CAN see ... match the other 3 spots.

Numbers on the latch, cylinder face and on the barrel in the recess under the latch. for example if the SN is 12345 in all the other spots and with the lanyard obscuring part of the SN you can see 12xx5 ... you've got a matching gun. No rocket science invovled.

The S&W logo is good. The pins and trigger axis shaft (and sideplate screws) that protrude to the right side are perfectly rounded and unmolested. Nice.

You'll never know for sure until you letter it. I'm curious about the proof mark behind the lanyard.

 

[model3sw]

Howdy

Last weekend I came across this New Model Number Three at a local gun show. The caliber is 44 Russian. The Serial Number is 310XX and Roy said it shipped in October of 1896.

Scratching my head on that 1896 ship date. Should be more like 1901-02. The single line barrel address also suggests it is the later (same) production era.

My rule of thumb is 29xxx to 30000 are about 1900. I have several with sequentially higher numbers to 348xx which letter, sequentially, from 1900 to 1906.

For example (from Roy): Sal, New Model No. 3 serial 320xx was shipped in December 1902. Hope that this helps the shipping records do not list caliber, but that is not unusual. Roy

and another: Sal, New Model No. 3 serial number 338xx was shipped in November 1904. I hope that this helps. Roy

 

[Masterpiece]

When these were ordered with the Lanyard the serial number on the butt was placed in this position.

This one was ordered with a lanyard. Although it looks like a US lanyard, the Japanese orders usually had a circular ring more than the D shaped ring but there's no formal rule on the type of lanyard.

You'll never know for sure until you letter it. I'm curious about the proof mark behind the lanyard.

Hi Sal,

I agree there's a good possibility his will letter with the Lanyard Ring...Although Frank Allan & I have discussed on more than a few occasions the possibility S&W may have supplied the Japanese with Factory Lanyard Rings to be installed in their Arsenals after they arrived in Japan!!

Mainly being most of the NM#3 Revolvers they ordered...Especially in the later shipments...Were pulled from pre-existing inventory to fill their order & likely most didn't have Lanyard Rings!! Meaning that it would have been a big undertaking to have them installed by S&W before shipping...Really hard to say!!

Regarding the Stamp on the Butt...I'm already working on that & we'll see if I can readily identify it's meaning...Being I believe it to be a Japanese Character Stamp...Rather than a Proof Mark!!

Bottom line is...As you've already made note of...The Letter's going to end what's all been speculation up until now!!

 

[mmaher94087]

Masterpiece, I have not lettered my revolver. It has the Japanese Artillery markings.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy Again

I took both New Model Number Threes to a Cowboy match today. A couple of guys commented on my Schofields. Most CAS shooters only know about Schofields, they don't know about the other #3 models.

I forgot a couple of times, you have to keep your finger off the trigger when cocking them. Unlike a Colt, since the bolt is actuated by the trigger and not the hammer, if you restrict the trigger's motion you cannot cock the gun. The nickel plated one had to remind me a couple of times.

The guns performed like champs. I don't try to shoot fast, I just try to hit all the targets. Scored a clean match (hit all the targets). Just a small match, only six stages.

Thought I would take a photo of how they looked after each one fired 30 Black Powder rounds.

I think I will fill out the form to get the new one lettered this week. Then maybe we can get to the bottom of just what it is.

 

[model3sw]

Howdy Again

I took both New Model Number Threes to a Cowboy match today. A couple of guys commented on my Schofields. Most CAS shooters only know about Schofields, they don't know about the other #3 models.

I forgot a couple of times, you have to keep your finger off the trigger when cocking them. Unlike a Colt, since the bolt is actuated by the trigger and not the hammer, if you restrict the trigger's motion you cannot cock the gun. The nickel plated one had to remind me a couple of times.

The guns performed like champs. I don't try to shoot fast, I just try to hit all the targets. Scored a clean match (hit all the targets). Just a small match, only six stages.

Thought I would take a photo of how they looked after each one fired 30 Black Powder rounds.

They sure do get hot fast. I don't rapid fire either. i take a slow 10 count between shots loading only 5 (it's a safety and "range" thing). Let it cool for a few minutes when reloading. After all, they are more than 100 year old. Treat with due respect and reverence. PS: it is OK to wipe off the gunsmoke dust with a soft cloth between reload sessions.

 

[rhmc24]

Mine lettered shipped to France 1896 I bought in 1950 in France for $18.


I carried & shot it in Africa a year or so, smokeless only ----->

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

They sure do get hot fast. I don't rapid fire either. i take a slow 10 count between shots loading only 5 (it's a safety and "range" thing). Let it cool for a few minutes when reloading. After all, they are more than 100 year old. Treat with due respect and reverence. PS: it is OK to wipe off the gunsmoke dust with a soft cloth between reload sessions.

SASS rules require we only load 5 rounds and keep an empty chamber under the hammer, so I only load 5 anyway. At the range I usually only load 5, for safety sake with a single action, and out of habit with a modern double action.

I am not a speed demon with them, but I do shoot them as fast as cocking and seeing through the smoke allows. Yesterday I was shooting very slow in the morning because the smoke was obscuring all the targets. Shooting into the sun, with no breeze made the targets almost invisible through the smoke. It cleared up a bit later.

Shooting five shots in about 15 seconds does not heat them up a whole lot. Firing ten shots from my Henry, without a wooden forestock does heat it up a lot. I usually have to wear a glove on my left hand because the barrel/magazine gets so hot on a hot summer day. Same with my shotgun, it hears up big time after only 4 shots.

Between stages there is plenty of time for everything to cool down.

I don't wipe my guns off during a match. The combination of Big Lube bullets with plenty of SPG on them, plus my Ballistol treatment keeps them rolling fine all day long through a ten stage match. If they started to bind up, I would wipe them down. But they don't so I don't.

 

[DesmoEd]

Don't see many having a Blued Finish in that high of condition!!

exactly why I cringe when I see people shooting and taking apart a fine original specimen like this...

 

[TomkinsSP]

Thank you for this thread. Besides giving me a peek at two beautiful firearms, the third picture of the first post answered a nagging question I had regarding a different S&W (since I am sure they used the same production mehods.)

 

[Rangeline9]

You must have used the self-rising kind. Everybody knows baking soda is a scour/cleaning agent, especially if you mix it with vinegar.

Most of us know you're joking but a few may not.

Vinegar is a sure way to remove rust and also rust bluing.

Could quite accidentally, but much deservedly, end up with a WHITE gun.

 

[Wiregrassguy]

Most of us know you're joking but a few may not.

Yes, it was a joke. Folks, do not scour your gun with baking soda or put vinegar on it.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

exactly why I cringe when I see people shooting and taking apart a fine original specimen like this...

Perhaps the photos do not show it well enough, but this is not a museum piece. It is not rare, there were over 30,000 of these made. The original blue is only about 75%, and it has its share of small nicks and scratches. Beyond that, I am proficient at taking one of these apart and putting it back together again without harming anything. Shooting it with Black Powder loads which are actually slightly less powerful than the original loads (200 grain bullets instead of 230 grains) will not hurt it at all. I'm not going to be shooting it every week, just a few times a year. Beyond that..........let's see, it's my gun right?

 

[TomkinsSP]

Perhaps the photos do not show it well enough, but this is not a museum piece. It is not rare, there were over 30,000 of these made. The original blue is only about 75%, and it has its share of small nicks and scratches. Beyond that, I am proficient at taking one of these apart and putting it back together again without harming anything. Shooting it with Black Powder loads which are actually slightly less powerful than the original loads (200 grain bullets instead of 230 grains) will not hurt it at all. I'm not going to be shooting it every week, just a few times a year. Beyond that..........let's see, it's my gun right?

It is YOUR gun, to do with as you please. But IMHO it is also A gun. It was created to be fired. Like a fine automobile it should be taken out and enjoyed, not abused, but used for thier owners pleasure.