Rastoff
US Veteran
Exactly why it's funny to say you don't discuss guns with people you don't know.
A question on gun etiquette.
- Thread starter Grayfox
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Rastoff
US Veteran
I will always respect other's rights. However, if they don't have a sign, how will I know that they don't want me to carry?
While true, said owner isn't very gun smart and probably wouldn't have noticed. The last time the SIL of said friend had to be asked to do anything was after he was already drunk and, yes, this is funny, we had to call the mommy of a 20something to come pick him up. No guns were involved, but I did have a 3 Dcell mag light in my hand ready to put somebody out because he was very aggressive to my friend, who was also very drunk. That's how I found he was a "push over" because when he came at me, instead of using the mag light, I just side stepped and gently pushed his shoulder and over he went. Unfortunately, I work with his mom (didn't realize it till she showed up) and it's been awkward ever since.
That was a few years ago, before I even owned a gun, or had my permit. But even if I had my gun on me, the mag light would have been my go to because that was really all that was needed (it wasn't even needed).
I do remember my friend asking me, after, if I would have hit him or the SIL with the mag light. He said he backed down because it looked like I really just wanted to hit somebody.
okiegtrider
Member
This reminds me of a story that happened this week to a friend of mine. The friend is an assistant district attorney. Here OK, they are permitted by statute to carry. Most of them don't carry all the time, but this friend of mine does.
This past week he was to be presenting a case in a neighboring county and before a judge that he didn't normally appear. So, before court was in session, my friend took a moment, as a courtesy and out of respect, to inform the judge that he was armed.
The judges response? "OK, but I wish you hadn't told me."
No further action, just that.
So, you never know what someone's reaction to informing them you are armed might be.
This past week he was to be presenting a case in a neighboring county and before a judge that he didn't normally appear. So, before court was in session, my friend took a moment, as a courtesy and out of respect, to inform the judge that he was armed.
The judges response? "OK, but I wish you hadn't told me."
No further action, just that.
So, you never know what someone's reaction to informing them you are armed might be.
In my state if you get involved in a shooting regardless of how it happened or what was served, you are very likely to end up facing a judge and trying to avoid a felony conviction. If I ever thought a party would end up with confrontations, I would avoid it like the plague, regardless of carrying anything. I don't go looking for trouble, but always try to stay prepared for the unexpected trouble.
None of you can connect anything I say here to my life in the real world. None of you can put my business on the street in a way that's detrimental to me.
Is that plain enough for you?
Rastoff
US Veteran
Man, relax a little. I was a funny turn of phrase, that's all. You said you don't discuss guns with people you don't know, but spend a lot of time here discussing guns with us, whom you don't know. It was funny. I'm laughing with you not at you. I'm sorry to have offended you.
OP
Grayfox
US Veteran
Well, since I started this mess, I'll make a couple more comments and let it go.
My OP wasn't about what's legal or tactically correct, it was about what constitutes plain old good manners.
I have no problem with my friends carrying in my home. They are, after all, my friends and I trust them. However, if a stranger were to enter my home armed without telling me, yes, I would be a bit insulted. This is my home. I'm responsible for everything that happens here and I should know if another weapon has entered. Especially one that isn't under my direct control.
I doubt if I would tell that person to leave. Especially if they were accompanied by one of my friends as a guest. However, I would consider such behavior to be downright rude.
The party is this afternoon. I don't know these people, but I do know my girlfriend, her tastes in people and her principals. It is a bar-b-que and I strongly suspect that alcohol will be served, but I don't know for absolutely certain. I am familiar with the area we will be in. Its a nice neighborhood.
In short, I have absolutely no reason to anticipate any problems whatsoever. Therefore, as a courtesy to my hosts, I will be leaving my pistol locked inside the car.
My plan is to wish the USA a happy birthday and enjoy the party.
My OP wasn't about what's legal or tactically correct, it was about what constitutes plain old good manners.
I have no problem with my friends carrying in my home. They are, after all, my friends and I trust them. However, if a stranger were to enter my home armed without telling me, yes, I would be a bit insulted. This is my home. I'm responsible for everything that happens here and I should know if another weapon has entered. Especially one that isn't under my direct control.
I doubt if I would tell that person to leave. Especially if they were accompanied by one of my friends as a guest. However, I would consider such behavior to be downright rude.
The party is this afternoon. I don't know these people, but I do know my girlfriend, her tastes in people and her principals. It is a bar-b-que and I strongly suspect that alcohol will be served, but I don't know for absolutely certain. I am familiar with the area we will be in. Its a nice neighborhood.
In short, I have absolutely no reason to anticipate any problems whatsoever. Therefore, as a courtesy to my hosts, I will be leaving my pistol locked inside the car.
My plan is to wish the USA a happy birthday and enjoy the party.
Dvan34
Member
Sounds fine being more concerned with what others think (if they do). But I hope you never find that you suddenly need it. As one post previously stated :Concealed is Concealed. I carry a .40 Shield IWB Alien Gear Tuckable. IT IS concealed as a crossdraw. So close to my waist that it is undetectable. There are many excellent holsters available. Last but not least I never tell anyone that I am carrying. The less they know the better.
Dvan34
Member
Consider how many times parties have been interrupted by criminals or home invasions? Also having a perp lurking around your car outside and there when you go to get in your car- gun or not. Situational Awareness is always being alert to what is or may be around you and being prepared to react- first! Most people leaving a party late at night in the dark after having a good time and a few drinks are NOT alert or prepared. Also cars get broken into and/or stolen. Some states hold you accountable if your firearm is accessible and stolen.
That aspect seems to have been near totally forgotten & lost in this long conversation.
If it is concealed nobody knows and thus nobody will feel "insulted" that they weren't consulted first.
To me this isn't good manners . . . taking off one's shoes (if muddy or covered in dirt/snow) when entering someone's house is good manners.
If you really believe it to be rude/poor manners not to ask before carrying on someone else's property . . . if you were invited to your GF's parents house would you also advise them of what you are carrying in your wallet (condoms) as good manners too?
To me this isn't good manners . . . taking off one's shoes (if muddy or covered in dirt/snow) when entering someone's house is good manners.
If you really believe it to be rude/poor manners not to ask before carrying on someone else's property . . . if you were invited to your GF's parents house would you also advise them of what you are carrying in your wallet (condoms) as good manners too?
As for events in "nice towns" or "nice areas", the DBs from Boston and Brockton are usually the ones robbing homes in my town, doing home invasions, etc. They go to where people have "nice things" to ply their trade. Thus, one can never be certain of their safety just because they are in a nice area.
Sigmund Sauer
Member
I am new to this forum. And to the world of SD and CCW. But I have spent a lot of time studying Second Amendment Rights.
Was very surprised to see a third of the people on this forum feel the poster should leave his gun at home or in the car.
He is quite obviously a law abiding citizen carrying legally.
He seems to be living in state where you don't have to ask your host for permission to carry in his home (btw does anybody know which states those are?)
And yet most people replied that he should leave his gun in the car.
That answer seems to imply that a gun is something threatening/menacing/bad somehow.
But, to quote the great old Charlton Heston: "Any gun in the hands of a decent person is no threat to anybody - except bad people."
If you trust someone enough to invite them into your home, be it directly, or because he is the guest of someone you trust, then why would you not be happy for him to carry?
Honestly, I fear the people who reply he should leave the gun in the car are engaging in the kind of thinking that gun control people are trapped in. They assume that anybody who carries a gun is most likely a bad guy.
Imho, if you don't let other good people carry in your home, or if you somehow demand that they ask for your permission, you are basically the same as those states that don't honor CCW permits from other states.
Best wishes
Ziggy
Was very surprised to see a third of the people on this forum feel the poster should leave his gun at home or in the car.
He is quite obviously a law abiding citizen carrying legally.
He seems to be living in state where you don't have to ask your host for permission to carry in his home (btw does anybody know which states those are?)
And yet most people replied that he should leave his gun in the car.
That answer seems to imply that a gun is something threatening/menacing/bad somehow.
But, to quote the great old Charlton Heston: "Any gun in the hands of a decent person is no threat to anybody - except bad people."
If you trust someone enough to invite them into your home, be it directly, or because he is the guest of someone you trust, then why would you not be happy for him to carry?
Honestly, I fear the people who reply he should leave the gun in the car are engaging in the kind of thinking that gun control people are trapped in. They assume that anybody who carries a gun is most likely a bad guy.
Imho, if you don't let other good people carry in your home, or if you somehow demand that they ask for your permission, you are basically the same as those states that don't honor CCW permits from other states.
Best wishes
Ziggy
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Let us not over think this issue. If truly concealed, none of the attendees will know a weapon is being carried.
On a simpler level, do YOU know every other attendee well enough to know there is absolutely no chance of danger? And, do YOU know the venue well enough to know there is absolutely no chance of a nut entering the event to do harm generally or to someone else attending the event?
On a more basic level, do you think your right to self-defense somehow goes away because of where you are? By all means, if the owner knows you are armed, he has the right to say "no," just like you have a right to not attend or to leave.
For sure, follow all applicable laws, but if it is concealed, how does this ever become an issue?
On a simpler level, do YOU know every other attendee well enough to know there is absolutely no chance of danger? And, do YOU know the venue well enough to know there is absolutely no chance of a nut entering the event to do harm generally or to someone else attending the event?
On a more basic level, do you think your right to self-defense somehow goes away because of where you are? By all means, if the owner knows you are armed, he has the right to say "no," just like you have a right to not attend or to leave.
For sure, follow all applicable laws, but if it is concealed, how does this ever become an issue?
ContinentalOp
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Just off the top of my head I believe South Carolina requires visitors to get permission from home owners before entering while armed. I may be mistaken, but I believe I've also read that this applies to LE as well.
Old TexMex
Member
I'm not denying anyones right to property if I am carrying concealed in their home.
The responsibility to keep their home "gun free" is not my responsibility.
They, of course, can interview each individual as they arrive, take a sworn statement that I will neither conceal a firearm or use any other form of self defense to protect myself or others, then sue me if a home invasion occurs and I prove myself to be a liar regarding that statement by defending myself them or others on their property.
The government is the entity which is prohibited from denying rights. Citizens are bound/ protected by laws written in each state. If the state where you are requires disclosure of handgun possession, follow that law. (I don't know which states REQUIRE that a licensed concealed carrier to disclose to non LEO, someone give us a link to the state law if they know of one) South Carolina does seem to require asking for permission!
But don't imply that I, by exercising a right to keep and bear am in any way denying another his "property rights". I am not.
If the property owner doesn't want me there, he can say so and I'll leave. Simple.
This back and forth is absurd.
Texas:
A license holder commits an offense if the license holder:
1. Carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, on property of another without effective consent; and
a. Entry on the property by a license holder with a concealed handgun was forbidden; or
b. Remaining on the property with a concealed handgun was forbidden and failed to depart.
California law says "if a property owner does not want an individual to carry on their property they must ask them to leave."
Massachusetts has no "gun-free zone" laws. If a property owner wishes an individual who is carrying a concealed firearm to leave, they must tell them specifically
Here's a link for all 50 states:
http://www.irem.org/File Library/Public Policy/ConcealedCarryLaw.pdf
The responsibility to keep their home "gun free" is not my responsibility.
They, of course, can interview each individual as they arrive, take a sworn statement that I will neither conceal a firearm or use any other form of self defense to protect myself or others, then sue me if a home invasion occurs and I prove myself to be a liar regarding that statement by defending myself them or others on their property.
The government is the entity which is prohibited from denying rights. Citizens are bound/ protected by laws written in each state. If the state where you are requires disclosure of handgun possession, follow that law. (I don't know which states REQUIRE that a licensed concealed carrier to disclose to non LEO, someone give us a link to the state law if they know of one) South Carolina does seem to require asking for permission!
But don't imply that I, by exercising a right to keep and bear am in any way denying another his "property rights". I am not.
If the property owner doesn't want me there, he can say so and I'll leave. Simple.
This back and forth is absurd.
Texas:
A license holder commits an offense if the license holder:
1. Carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, on property of another without effective consent; and
a. Entry on the property by a license holder with a concealed handgun was forbidden; or
b. Remaining on the property with a concealed handgun was forbidden and failed to depart.
California law says "if a property owner does not want an individual to carry on their property they must ask them to leave."
Massachusetts has no "gun-free zone" laws. If a property owner wishes an individual who is carrying a concealed firearm to leave, they must tell them specifically
Here's a link for all 50 states:
http://www.irem.org/File Library/Public Policy/ConcealedCarryLaw.pdf
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Old TexMex
Member
I certainly hope that your party is no subjected to home invasion robbery, and if it were, God forbid, I hope too that the robbers will have the good manners to allow you to go get your firearm from your car, and leave peaceably.Well, since I started this mess, I'll make a couple more comments and let it go.
My OP wasn't about what's legal or tactically correct, it was about what constitutes plain old good manners.
I have no problem with my friends carrying in my home. They are, after all, my friends and I trust them. However, if a stranger were to enter my home armed without telling me, yes, I would be a bit insulted. This is my home. I'm responsible for everything that happens here and I should know if another weapon has entered. Especially one that isn't under my direct control.
I doubt if I would tell that person to leave. Especially if they were accompanied by one of my friends as a guest. However, I would consider such behavior to be downright rude.
The party is this afternoon. I don't know these people, but I do know my girlfriend, her tastes in people and her principals. It is a bar-b-que and I strongly suspect that alcohol will be served, but I don't know for absolutely certain. I am familiar with the area we will be in. Its a nice neighborhood.
In short, I have absolutely no reason to anticipate any problems whatsoever. Therefore, as a courtesy to my hosts, I will be leaving my pistol locked inside the car.
My plan is to wish the USA a happy birthday and enjoy the party.
.
That said, it's not open for discussion with my friends as a general rule. Sometimes it comes up but I avoid the discussion if possible. That's why the gun is concealed. It is never off my person and if a home owner objects then I go home.
Rastoff
US Veteran
Thanks for posting this, but I'd like to make a clarification. The CA law governing this is the trespass law and is found in CA PC section 602. It is long and wordy so I won't post the whole thing here.
I would like to point out that there are no firearm specific laws governing carry on private property. The short version is this, if the rightful owner asks you to leave, regardless of the reason, and you don't leave within a reasonable amount of time, you're trespassing. At that time the owner may use whatever force is reasonable and necessary to eject you. If he discovers you have a gun, doesn't like it, and asks you to leave, you must go. However, a simple sign saying "No Guns" is not sufficient and doesn't carry the weight of law. It must be a direct request.
So, in the scenario in the OP, just carrying in someone's house is perfectly legal in CA.
I still don't understand how it's disrespectful. Even so, if I were invited to the OP's house, I would alert him because I no know that he finds it disrespectful.
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