About the Model 13

Kavinsky

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when it comes to the model 13 has that series had any of the reported problems that the model 19 has had when it comes to living off of a life of magnum loads or has it been spared this because of the heavy barrel the model 13 had from the getgo?
 
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No -- all K-frame magnums (except the few 2-piece barrel versions made right at the end) had a flat spot at the bottom of their forcing cones which created a potential weak spot. If they failed -- that was generally the place. Also, K-frames are a bit lighter all the way around than the L-frames -- shooting a steady diet of full magnum loads could "shoot a gun loose" over a period of years; i.e., end-shake.

Most K-frame guys though were familiar with the rule of thumb to shoot 80% 38 Special to 20% magnums to help its longevity. I shoot almost exclusively 38 Special out of my K-frame magnums.

These K-frame magnums are great guns -- I have a few.
 
That is an excellent question!

Most of the problems regarding the M19 stem from the weakest part of the gun which is the forcing cone area and the top strap just above it. The M19 is a K-Frame and other K-Frame models chambered in .357 would therefore be susceptible to the same set of parameters.

The M19 was a much more popular gun than the M13, and because of that it has had more exposure to failure than the M13 has had. The M13 and it's Stainless twin, the M65 was widely purchased in the 3" barrel length for CCW by Law Enforcement, and was basically a "carry gun", therefore probably not shot nearly as much as the M19's have been, therefore the same problems were not showing up as much.

The other factor that caused problems with the M19 was just around the time that it became so popular with the shooting public, the 125 grain .357 Magnum was enjoying it's #1 spot for being a "Man-stopper". The 125 grain bullets under the Magnum pressures was discovered to be problematic in K-Frame 357's and caused flame cutting, erosion of the forcing cone area, and frame & barrel cracking. The M13's were routinely issued to L/E with 38 Special +P or +P+ ammo and so they were not subjected to the same amount of abuse as the M19's.

All that said; I own both a M19 and a M65 ( stainless twin of the M13) and have shot the heck out of both of them with Magnums. I avoid 125 grain bullets and I have had no problems with either revolver. Most of my friends also own similar guns and they have not experienced any problems either. Since I bought my 6" M19 used, I have no idea what was shot through it prior to being owned by me, but again there are no problems with it.

As a carry gun, the M13 (and its sisters) are GREAT choices. They allow .357 ammo to be used, are nice smooth, concealable and reliable revolvers, and are deadly accurate. I wold just stay away from shooting 125 grain Magnum bullets in them.

Now I have also worked on many M19, M66, M65, M13 revolvers and can honestly say that despite all the hype about their weaknesses I have not personally seen any cracked frames yet. Not saying that they haven't had problems, but I have yet to personally or physically see any. I think by now most owners know to stay away from the lighter bullets and have shot limited amounts of 357 Magnum ammo through them. People who want to pound out large quantities of Magnum ammo shoot it out of L or N frames, and keep the K-Frames more for carry purposes.

Hope this long-winded response was helpful in answering your question.

Chief38
 
Indeed it was as I didnt know about that 125 grain thing nor that much history behind it. It was just sort of a hmm I wonder kinda think as one of my gun reviewers just posted a video about the model 13 a couple of days ago


This one:
Model 13 S & W .357 Magnum - YouTube


So it got me wondering about its reputation as I had only really heard about that with the model 19 but not this one and I have handled both the 19 and the 13 and I really liked the feel of both of them.

anyways I'm gonna have to get one of them one of these days although one thing though about that K frame he's got in the video, any idea what the grips are?
 
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The grips are Pachymeyers I believe. If they are still made, Uncle Mikes makes a similar set and they are (IMHO) better than the Pachy's.

Chief38
 
I stand corrected, you are right! That's what happens when you watch videos at 5am in the morning without having your coffee :)

Chief38
 
Kavinsky;
I bought my 13-2 new, about 25 yrs ago, and have fired just oodles of midrange wadcutters, service loads, +P's, and full-bore magnum rounds thru it. Zero problems of any kind. Always goes bang and puts lead where I point it.

Larry
 
You can break a forcing cone on a 13 the same way you can break one on a 19. Just shoot alot of lead, don't clean the barrel/forcing cone properly, then shoot some jacketed, high powered 110/125 grain 357 (preferably hot hand loads :) ).

Heres a question for those who....worry, about shooting magnum ammunition in K-frame magnums. Did you ever hear about this alleged "issue" prior to the coming of crush fit barrels and the 19-5 ??? Me neither.

I did hear about the bad batch of 19-5 barrels though. I was around at the time. ;) I also recall that S&W blamed ammunition from a specific manufacturer. That manfacturer had some cracked barrels examined and determined it was a metalurgy problem with the barrels. When they brought this to S&W's attention, the story goes that S&W told them to keep it to themselves and removed the faulty barrels - to storage. A few years later, still during 19-5 production, another manager put the ill made barrels back into the production line. Viola !!! "weak" K-frame magnums.

Forty four years and I've yet to destroy a K-frame magnum, in ANY fashion. Doubt I have enough years left to do so. Go shoot those K-frame magnums with 158 grain 357's if you want to and enjoy them for what they are. The finest revolvers ever to come out of S&W. Regards 18DAI
 
I stand corrected, you are right! That's what happens when you watch videos at 5am in the morning without having your coffee :)

Chief38

How in the world were you even alive at 5 am without coffee?:eek:
If the house is not actually ON FIRE, there is no good reason to be up at that time...... Unless you're just getting to bed, then I can live with it.:D

The K-Frame revolvers are great carry guns. I agree you should stay away from the 125 grain loads for extended shooting. I carry my 2 1/2" M 66-1 quite a bit. It is always loaded with Federal 125 grain loads. I just don't shoot a lot of them in range sessions. Just enough to know where the POA/POI is.
Jim
 
Indeed its just that I like to get the fully story behind the rules when it comes to firearms like this and find out why that is with certain guns and not others.

basically I seek to understand how these guns got this reputation and what are the truths behind it and what are the exagerations and downright lies by people trying to make you buy their product instead of that particular product.
 
Hi,
I have a model 13-2 4 inch and a 19-2 4 inch. I also have a 66-4 4 inch. In my humble opinion the K frame 357 magnum in all the models were the best all around revolvers S&W ever made. The issue about shooting high amounts of 357 magnums to me is overblown. Only the light 110 to 125 gr traveling at high velocity at 1500 or over were identified as the rounds that would cause the forcing cone to crack. Now I have only seen pictures of this on the internet. But I have seen pictures of Ruger GP100s that cracked forcing cones with the same type of rounds. These type of rounds punish any revolver. Not all 125 gr rounds are hard on the K frame. Rounds like the Remington Golden Saber 125 gr will not cause the issue. These rounds travel at about 1300 fps.
I shoot 357 magnums through all my K frame magnums. At the range I shoot mostly CCI 158 gr 357 hollow points. Again a round that travels about 1200 fps. I don't have any flame cutting or forcing cone erosion.
Summary: Use common sense and stay with a 140 to 158 gr round traveling a 1100 to 1300 fps and clean your revolver after each range session. If a person does this any K frame magnum will mostly likely out last the owner.
Regards
 
actually that sounds like the more sensible rule of thumb with this.

plus it makes sense and lines up with the info about the 125 grain round and everything else I've pieced together about the K frame magnum thing in the past couple of months and it explains why not only a ruger GP 101 poped up with that failure as you just reported but why a colt python was listed here as well

Use of Magnum Loads in S&W Model 19 and Other K-Frame Magnums

A gun that was regarded as being as heavy and bulky as an N frame.

Basically that was the last piece of the puzzle in regards to the K frames, avoid the 19 -5's and avoid hot ammo over 1500 fps with light bullets and it can take the magnum loads just fine.

plus the use of those hot loads in the colt python might explain those timing issues I've heard about with them and why the 80's ones were regarded as having issues as well like the K frames.

As they adopted the crush fitting practice for the 1980's with colts as well and I would imagine the popularity of the 125 grain mag loads would have probably been around the same time they started doing that creating the perfect storm with the colts and the K frame magnums.
 
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"Heres a question for those who....worry, about shooting magnum ammunition in K-frame magnums. Did you ever hear about this alleged "issue" prior to the coming of crush fit barrels and the 19-5 ??? Me neither." (Quote)

Yes...several times...personally saw / handled probably a half dozen M19-2, -3, and -4 guns with split frames at 6'o clock under the barrel from relatively heavy shooting using Federal and Remington 125gr .357Mag factory ammo. Both with my own agency and with several others back in the 1980's...never saw a M66 do it but I'm sure they did as well.
 
I've nothing to add..... I just wanted to say thanks for the very informative thread ! I learn something new every time I come to this forum....which is always a good thing.

I really enjoyed the old guy in the (linked) You Tube video....on the Mod. 13. Nice old guy....I bet it would be fun to pick his brain ! Lots of good stories, I bet !

Since the Mod. 10/13/65's are my favorites....I'm always on the look out for more info on them.
 
I have a 3" Mod 13-2 currently. The first gun I ever bought was a Mod 19 2 1/2" bbl. model, during T.M.I. in 1979. There was talk we in central PA. might have to evacuate.

I have no idea if the light bullet .357 mag ammo will split K frame forcing cones or not. I have read with interest all sides of this argument over the years. My conclusion was to stick with 158 gr. .357 magnum loads instead of the lighter loads since just about everyone agrees that using the heavier loads does not produce the type of failure described.
It is an easy solution and I have no problem shooting a magnum load that travels at 1100-1300 fps instead of a load that travels 1500 fps at typical self defense and practice ranges. I don't see anything wrong with the projectile being heavier either. The round was originally designed with a 158 gr. projectile and that is good enough for me.
 
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The finest revolvers ever to come out of S&W

I concur; I love the K-Frames, wish that S&W would get more out of them with new line-ups, like bringing back the 547 (and no, it's not the most expensive revolver S&W built, it's a sales issue). However, I'm a great fan of the K/.357s. I didn't realize there was such a model as the 13 until one day I was sitting around and thinking about K-frames and their names, and I realized that S&W must have made a blued version of the 65. A quick search confirmed it was the 13 and now I've got to have one, but there are none to be had feasibly in my current location. However, it doesn't stop me from looking around, and thought all ought to know there's a beautiful one on GB right now at a good price. If I were stateside, it would be mine, but since I can't have it, thought some good K-frame lovin' soul ought to. It's got a day left and it's still less that $400. Looks like it might be NIB, too. If I could have it, I'd have this one hands down.

pix344514883.jpg


Somebody please tell me they got it!
 
I started out wanting a Mod.13.....that was my "dream gun". I "settled" for a Mod.10, albeit a 3" HB 10-8 (3" HB is exactly the configuration I wanted in a Mod. 13). Now....and with the recent increase in prices of the 13's....I don't care that much. I'd rather have a 10, now. I'll never load magnum loads, anyway. I hate shooting them (in guns belonging to friends).... I'll worry about shot placement....and leave the blunderbuss loads to others.
 
I've nothing to add..... I just wanted to say thanks for the very informative thread ! I learn something new every time I come to this forum....which is always a good thing.

I really enjoyed the old guy in the (linked) You Tube video....on the Mod. 13. Nice old guy....I bet it would be fun to pick his brain ! Lots of good stories, I bet !

Since the Mod. 10/13/65's are my favorites....I'm always on the look out for more info on them.



yeah I've been following him for awhile as an ex nutinfancy watcher who got sick of nutin's doom and gloom schlich as I'm tired of focusing on the negative stuff when it comes to guns and I'm a gun enthasist not a doomsday enthasist like pompusfancy there.


and he's a competetion shooter of about 30 years, has his own range on a 40 acre lot up in Tennessee which is where he does all of his shooting, right outside of his own house with his loving wife and son and he's a professional teacher as well.

and has put a ton of rounds though an N frame he bought himself in 73:
.44 Magnum Model 29 8-inch (Close-up) - YouTube


and he's got a 19 and a 686:
Model 19 S & W .357 Magnum (Close-Up) - YouTube
Smith and Wesson 686 - YouTube

basically a man after my own heart and one day I'm going to do exactly like he did with his house there and have my own private range right outside of my door, atleast thats the dream.



I started out wanting a Mod.13.....that was my "dream gun". I "settled" for a Mod.10, albeit a 3" HB 10-8 (3" HB is exactly the configuration I wanted in a Mod. 13). Now....and with the recent increase in prices of the 13's....I don't care that much. I'd rather have a 10, now. I'll never load magnum loads, anyway. I hate shooting them (in guns belonging to friends).... I'll worry about shot placement....and leave the blunderbuss loads to others.



eh you may want to read a book called Six Guns by Keith, as there was a good reason why people started switching from the .38's to the .357's and above.

and theres a reason why the .357 and .45 acp will never die as the goto manstoppers, although for the sake of my hearing I'd probably go for a .45

although with a .38 I reckon you should be fine and there a 158 grain loads or higher with hollowpoints.
 
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Since the Mod. 10/13/65's are my favorites....I'm always on the look out for more info on them.

Awww, K-Framer, you should be ashamed...you got all the best one's mentioned except my very favorite, the 547!!!! :D


M547.jpg
 
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