It ain't that hard. I do it most every day with a S&W 442 or a Glock 43, and waiting on a Glock 42 AWIB holster from SnubbyFan to match the other two. People who are scared of guns overthink this . . .
Accidental discharge - Appendix Carry
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smoothshooter
Member
Well, that's the problem.
Appendix carry is much less forgiving of unsafe drawing and re-holstering technique.
I personally will not even consider it with anything but a revolver, or an automatic with a thumb safety, and even stopped carrying thumb safety autos in that manner.
Except the fact that during draw and reholstering your muzzle is pointed at your groin. I don't care how much training you have, if you have a mistake you put your own life in peril. It's never worth that risk. A 1/10 of a second of misjudgment and you're dead. No thanks. It's your life and your risk you do as you want. I know I won't have to worry about it and your death effects me in no way. People have died from it. I've never seen anyone die carrying small of the back or the hip.
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I handle firearms every day, if not my duty pistol at the start and end of shift then one of my own private guns. My mind has a tendency to wander, but I learnt the hard way (fortunately on my own on a range) that when handling a firearm (or reloading) to concentrate only on what I am doing and nothing else. That way ND's are avoided.
The last ND I am aware of was a month or so ago at our IPSC Nationals. An overseas R/O competing in the pre-shoot had an ND. I have heard different stories as to he shot his holster, parts of which went into his leg and he shot his leg. either way he flew home with a screw in his thigh.
Another ND I am aware of was a cop who put her finger on the trigger of an M4 when she shouldn't have. She now has only half a right foot. (The enquiry deemed that one a training failure. I'm not sure how they reached that conclusion).
25 years ago I purchased my own duty holster because I simply did not like the issue one (it was rubbish and we all knew it). For the most part my competition holsters are practical, not speed, holsters (why have a cutaway front holster when you re going to draw to under the armpit and not swing up from the waist?) and all cover the trigger completely. (My duty holster almost covers the whole pistol when the thumb strap is in position).
Good equipment, good habits and thinking about what you re doing is key to safety.
As for those videos, well I've never sen them but I have seen lots of dumb stuff on YouTube. Blame the ******* programs.
The last ND I am aware of was a month or so ago at our IPSC Nationals. An overseas R/O competing in the pre-shoot had an ND. I have heard different stories as to he shot his holster, parts of which went into his leg and he shot his leg. either way he flew home with a screw in his thigh.
Another ND I am aware of was a cop who put her finger on the trigger of an M4 when she shouldn't have. She now has only half a right foot. (The enquiry deemed that one a training failure. I'm not sure how they reached that conclusion).
25 years ago I purchased my own duty holster because I simply did not like the issue one (it was rubbish and we all knew it). For the most part my competition holsters are practical, not speed, holsters (why have a cutaway front holster when you re going to draw to under the armpit and not swing up from the waist?) and all cover the trigger completely. (My duty holster almost covers the whole pistol when the thumb strap is in position).
Good equipment, good habits and thinking about what you re doing is key to safety.
As for those videos, well I've never sen them but I have seen lots of dumb stuff on YouTube. Blame the ******* programs.
Don't be scared of your pistol. If you don't understand how it works, don't carry it . . .
Safe operation of the system includes very positive methods of insuring that the gun does not discharge when being holstered. Some of them are holding the hammer down when holstering a revolver, holding the hammer back when holstering a cocked-and-locked autolader, holding the finger behind the trigger when holstering some pistols. This may not be possible with all pistols and all holsters, especially certain striker-fired pistols, and certain covered-trigger-guard holsters.
Not every combination is safe. The owner is responsible for figuring out which. A good start might be not to buy a striker-fired pistol, although this is certainly not a hard and fast rule. There may, in fact, be some circumstances which call for the appropriately-ridiculed Israeli carry, although IMO it would usually be wiser to carry a different gun, even if you have to buy one.
"Darwinism" may work fairly well for appendix carry, but only for the younger.
It ain't rocket science, but really, the only thing that's rocket science is, well, rocket science. An AIWB system gets placed IWB with the pistol in the holster. Not sure why this is that hard to understand . . .
Walkingwolf
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Why would I want to try sticking a gun in my underwear? Heck I found a Sam Browne belt uncomfortable sitting in a car for extended time. No need to try something when there are much better options for carry. But if you like it then it is none of my business, just doesn't seem real comfortable having a hard metal/plastic object stuffed into an area that tends to be sensitive to start with. of course then people have tried to hide guns in much more personal places, doesn't make it a great idea.
I always carried at 4-430 and wanted to try appendix, but my tactical spare tire kept that from happening. So, I lost 45lbs and have been carrying appendix for 4 months now. I carry with the muzzle between my junk and inner thigh, so, if the gun happened to "go off" it will miss my junk and most of my thigh. I'd prob still get hit, but not as vital. Now, I carry either a Shield or 9c, both with safeties. Just like mentioned in a previous comment, I lean back when reholstering which aims the muzzle at the ground. I also carry in good quality kydex holsters and find this to be most comfortable, easy to conceal and faster to draw. I drive 6-8 hours a day and find it's more comfortable than any other way except shoulder holsters. To each their own. Good luck. Also, I was very, very apprehensive about carrying this way, and watched lots of videos on how to. I've also seen the video in question. I still choose appendix carry.
It isn't. I wasn't bashing appendix carry, just commenting that "Darwinism" has its limitation, for ANY error, not that appendix carry is necessarily one. Probably could have left out the last sentence of my last post.
I've carried AIWB for over 25 years. I carry that way now. If the gun is out of the holster I almost always remove the holster from my belt, holster the gun, and then place it back on my belt. I do on rare occasions holster my Shield 9 without removing the holster but it's a Shield V1 with a safety. It has the long factory trigger and I use the safety to holster it and then remove the safety. I take care no clothes are in the way. I don't like the Shield V2 for those reasons. The guy in the video looks to have been wearing a white T under his top shirt. I'd bet money that was the culprit. With my Officers model I have a sweat shield that protects the safety and hammer from my fat roll. I treat Glocks the same way.
amazingflapjack
US Veteran
revolver only for me.
+1
Coming up on 40 years of almost (literally almost) daily carry. The last 10+ has OFTEN been AIWB. The last 5 or so with a P365.
Over the years I have heard the same sort of message with any and every form of carry. There USED to be a contingent (and not a small one) in my very early days that preached that anyone who carried an auto on their person IWB with a round chambered was an idiot and would absolutely shoot themselves at some point if their lunacy did not stop!
Like all things internet... what do you want to hear? 5 minutes and you will find a community already singing your song.
For me, AIWB with the little SIG and occasionally up to a G19 size auto requires a kydex AIWB with a good strong belt clip, not just any as there are many that do not hold well, or that are on holsters not made well to support the clip. It must fully cover the trigger guard without contacting the trigger in any position, and retain the gun with almost a snap at the bottom of the insert stroke and a quick release on the way out.
These days kydex makers range from excellent quality to folks with an oven, a couple blocks of foam glued to plywood, a Dremel tool and an Etsy account. (Also a couple of excellent makers on Etsy).
Re-holstering when seated, and sometimes when standing, means using my off hand to release and remove the holster from my waist, holstering the gun while pointed in a safe manner and then re-inserting into my waistband with my thumb retaining the pistol firmly in the holster as it is inserted and clipped on to my belt. This works perfectly for me and my body type, clothing choices, etc. I am not maintaining that it would work for all.
Being in the habit of doing that I am perfectly comfortable with AIWB. If I was a weekend warrior who only did this occasionally, and not often enough to be completely comfortable with my own process and skill, I absolutely would not carry AIWB. Under those conditions I might even consider going back to empty chamber to keep my comfort level up.
One thing I would NOT do is make a blanket statement that AIWB is never a good idea for anyone under any circumstance.
There is an old saying about "absolutes" as they apply to advice and those who give that type of advice. Google it and find one you like!
Just now realized I revived an old thread. I will let it stand, but will also try to avoid doing this in the future. My bad.
My son shot himself in the leg with a M&P 45 holstering the weapon. Never would have happened if the gun had a safety. I will not carry a gun that does not have a safety, I have trained myself to disengage the safety upon drawing the weapon. This problem is more common than you might think, it even has a name.. It's called Glock Leg.
Once while in the hospital I found out my "room mate" blew his testicles off while showing his gun and re-holstering into appendix carry mode.
My issue is that with appendix carry any ND will have a greater risk of serious or fatal injury. An ND with 3 o'clock carry not so much.
My issue is that with appendix carry any ND will have a greater risk of serious or fatal injury. An ND with 3 o'clock carry not so much.
crstrode
Member
There is nothing wrong with reviewing history - contrary to popular belief, knowledge of and familiarity with history is valuable.
SchemaEnigma
Member
No amount of training can prevent an accident. It only reduces its probability.
Human beings generally are very willing to tolerate low probability high penalty risks. For example, what is your immediate response to a fire alarm in the middle of the night in a hotel?
Is it to immediately evacuate by the nearest stairs?
Most likely it is to wait to see if it is a false alarm. Or, perhaps getting dressed and gathering things to take with you.
The false alarm is much, much more likely. But, if the alarm is real, the delay can have deadly consequences.
AIWB has definite advantages in certain situations.
But, it also has more dire consequences in case of AD.
Human beings generally are very willing to tolerate low probability high penalty risks. For example, what is your immediate response to a fire alarm in the middle of the night in a hotel?
Is it to immediately evacuate by the nearest stairs?
Most likely it is to wait to see if it is a false alarm. Or, perhaps getting dressed and gathering things to take with you.
The false alarm is much, much more likely. But, if the alarm is real, the delay can have deadly consequences.
AIWB has definite advantages in certain situations.
But, it also has more dire consequences in case of AD.
pistolpete10
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Crotch carry is fine til you have a negligent discharge, a round in your crotch ain't so good. Why chance it???
Because in a gun fight 1/10 of a second matters. Appendix carry is known to be the fastest draw because it's the least distance traveled to point in. There are numerous other advantages.
As far as holstering your gun AIWB can be at least as safe as any other method and in my opinion safer, done with knowledge, training and safe practice.
You can see your path clearly down to the holster in front of you (assuming Kydex open top) and through the holster. Those are the very first considerations in safely, and slowly and carefully, holstering any gun in any position. You can thrust your hips forward as you holster AIWB and if for any reason the gun discharges the bullet will pass in front of your body. I have a foam wedge at the bottom of my holster. It makes for better comfort; it improves concealment by tilting the grip inward, and it keeps the muzzle pointed away from me a little more.
AIWB is no less safe than carrying in any other position. Clear the covering garment above the holster; visually clear the path to the holster; visually clear the inside of the holster; holster slowly but stop if there's any resistance holstering. Once the gun is in the holster with the trigger covered that is another safety and it's not gonna go off.
I had the same fears until I thoroughly researched the methods, got a good AIWB Kydex holster specifically molded for my gun, and practiced unloaded until I was comfortable. It is now my preferred carry 99% of the time.
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One point I would like to add to CB3's great post.
You should NEVER have to draw a loaded gun from the AIWB holster unless
you are going to use it because your in fear for your life.
Practice your draw and holstering with an empty gun! JMO
Picture 1 is a S&W 9mm EZ in a Vedder kydex holster. AIWB
Picture 2 is a S&W 380 M&P Bodyguard in a Vedder kydex holster,
also AIWB.
You should NEVER have to draw a loaded gun from the AIWB holster unless
you are going to use it because your in fear for your life.
Practice your draw and holstering with an empty gun! JMO
Picture 1 is a S&W 9mm EZ in a Vedder kydex holster. AIWB
Picture 2 is a S&W 380 M&P Bodyguard in a Vedder kydex holster,
also AIWB.
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Echo40
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Crotch Carry is just plain dangerous, in my opinion. Obviously, if a gun goes off when you're drawing it from your holster then you're probably going to get at least grazed by the bullet, and personally, the last place I want to get even so much as scratched by a bullet is my pelvic region/inner thighs.
Folks can sing the praises of Appendix IWB all day, list all the advantages of carrying it that way, downplay the risks involved, or make any number of lame insinuations towards those who choose to carry otherwise out of concern for said risks, but to me it's just a horrific accident waiting to happen.
Everyone is quick to point fingers and assert how all unintentional discharges are negligent discharges, until it happens to them or someone they care about. To me, it makes no difference whether it's negligence or not, I don't want to get shot in the pelvis, my bladder, my reproductive organs, my femur, or my femoral artery, regardless of how it occurs, so I would rather completely mitigate the risk of doing so by simply keeping my gun pointed in another direction by tucking it in another part of my waistband.
That being said, if anyone here carries their firearm Appendix IWB, then I urge you for the sake of yourself, your wife, and your potential children to carry a firearm with a manual safety, and train to disengage that safety just as you bring it on-target. The last thing you want to happen in a self-defense situation is to shoot yourself, especially in such an area.
Folks can sing the praises of Appendix IWB all day, list all the advantages of carrying it that way, downplay the risks involved, or make any number of lame insinuations towards those who choose to carry otherwise out of concern for said risks, but to me it's just a horrific accident waiting to happen.
Everyone is quick to point fingers and assert how all unintentional discharges are negligent discharges, until it happens to them or someone they care about. To me, it makes no difference whether it's negligence or not, I don't want to get shot in the pelvis, my bladder, my reproductive organs, my femur, or my femoral artery, regardless of how it occurs, so I would rather completely mitigate the risk of doing so by simply keeping my gun pointed in another direction by tucking it in another part of my waistband.
That being said, if anyone here carries their firearm Appendix IWB, then I urge you for the sake of yourself, your wife, and your potential children to carry a firearm with a manual safety, and train to disengage that safety just as you bring it on-target. The last thing you want to happen in a self-defense situation is to shoot yourself, especially in such an area.
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smoothshooter
Member
That's the problem.
Proper technique.
Requires a lot more practice than most gun carriers are willing to do.
retrieverhunter
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My brother in law who happens to be a cop shot himself with a subcompact XD9 in the thigh while attempting to get his gun in a IWB holster in appendix carry position. He claims he didn't pull the trigger, but I know dang well the gun didn't go off without the trigger being pulled. The bullet just "skimmed" down his leg under the skin and exited just above his knee.
[/QUOTE]The last thing you want to happen in a self-defense situation is to shoot yourself, especially in such an area.[/QUOTE]
True.
If you aren't capable or confident enough to draw a gun in a fight without shooting yourself, you shouldn't be carrying. You should be training.
Shooting oneself has happened from every carry position because of negligence, with varying non-fatal injuries to permanent disability or death. All avoidable. Fearing greater harm from AIWB in a negligent discharge does not negate the responsibility of not having the ND. It comes first. It is rather easily overcome on holstering for AIWB.
Now if the terror threat has switched to DRAWING from AIWB and shooting oneself, again, as with any other position, proper gear, training and reps solves the issue. It's finger off the trigger, Serpa folks. Finger off the trigger on holstering or drawing. Always. Only on the trigger when pointing in. Basic gun safety rule. It actually works. Modern guns don't fire unless the trigger is pulled. Don't trust yourself still? Add one or two manual safeties and deal with operating them under stress. You'll still be able to shoot yourself though when you defeat the safeties and break other rules. It's not the gun, the holster or the carry position that is to blame, it's negligent gun handling.
You can either learn to be safe, or try to overcome your incompetence with additional hardware rather than better software, or do everyone a favor and just don't carry at all. If you think there is any possibility that you will put your finger on the trigger of an AIWB gun while the muzzle is still in the holster and pull that trigger and injure yourself, well, don't. Use a holster at 3 o'clock IWB, act negligently, and shoot your self in the hip or thigh or knee or ankle or foot and see how things turn out. Will you blame that carry position?
Don't pull the trigger; the gun won't go off. Simple. Pull the trigger after drawing and pointing in and the gun goes boom in the proper direction and the person who needs the negative ballistic reinforcement should get it, not you. The concept is not abstruse. The refusal to implement training to be able to safely holster and draw a handgun for any reason, that's what's abstruse. Literally millions are doing it properly without shooting themselves.
True.
If you aren't capable or confident enough to draw a gun in a fight without shooting yourself, you shouldn't be carrying. You should be training.
Shooting oneself has happened from every carry position because of negligence, with varying non-fatal injuries to permanent disability or death. All avoidable. Fearing greater harm from AIWB in a negligent discharge does not negate the responsibility of not having the ND. It comes first. It is rather easily overcome on holstering for AIWB.
Now if the terror threat has switched to DRAWING from AIWB and shooting oneself, again, as with any other position, proper gear, training and reps solves the issue. It's finger off the trigger, Serpa folks. Finger off the trigger on holstering or drawing. Always. Only on the trigger when pointing in. Basic gun safety rule. It actually works. Modern guns don't fire unless the trigger is pulled. Don't trust yourself still? Add one or two manual safeties and deal with operating them under stress. You'll still be able to shoot yourself though when you defeat the safeties and break other rules. It's not the gun, the holster or the carry position that is to blame, it's negligent gun handling.
You can either learn to be safe, or try to overcome your incompetence with additional hardware rather than better software, or do everyone a favor and just don't carry at all. If you think there is any possibility that you will put your finger on the trigger of an AIWB gun while the muzzle is still in the holster and pull that trigger and injure yourself, well, don't. Use a holster at 3 o'clock IWB, act negligently, and shoot your self in the hip or thigh or knee or ankle or foot and see how things turn out. Will you blame that carry position?
Don't pull the trigger; the gun won't go off. Simple. Pull the trigger after drawing and pointing in and the gun goes boom in the proper direction and the person who needs the negative ballistic reinforcement should get it, not you. The concept is not abstruse. The refusal to implement training to be able to safely holster and draw a handgun for any reason, that's what's abstruse. Literally millions are doing it properly without shooting themselves.
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He violated rule one of IWB carry. The pistol goes into the holster, then into the waistband. There's no draw and reholster reps for IWB. It's a one shot deal. If you draw, it's gonna take a minute to put it back . . .
retrieverhunter
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As I said, my BIL is a cop, but he knows very little about guns or gun handling. He's the most awkward person I've ever been around with a gun in his hand. His agency only gives him 50 rounds a month to shoot, and he won't buy his own ammo. It's hard to get better if you don't train and make an effort to learn.
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