Advice on ammo please

[carto]

I have come into a little beauty: .38 DA top break, model 2, issue 2, nickle plated, SN 64XXX.

Being a black powder revolver, I'm not sure what to use for ammo. I have seen some posts in my limited lurking on this site recommending Remington 146gr lead rn (R38SW). Are there any other opinions???

Thanks

 

[rboineau]

People more knowledgeable than I on these old guns will have more info for you, but I'm not sure I would shoot it with factory smokeless cartridges. If you reload, you could either shoot it with black or make up a very light smokeless load that would probably be all right.

If the gun is REALLY nice I wouldn't shoot it at all.

 

[glowe]

You might get lots of differing opinions on this subject. .38S&W ammunition is readily available and I have shot it in my antique DAs. I have recently purchased some Remington, 146 grain lead and got 537 fps average on the chronograph, which is a very mild load. I also load my own with both BP and smokeless and my BP loads are about 650 fps, while my smokeless loads are up to 700 fps. I use the faster reloads in my post 1898 revolvers.

For my antiques, I load a 125 grain bullet with smokeless powder at about 500 fps and have every confidence that I am not harming my top-breaks. Easy on the gun and adequate accuracy for plinking - 2" spread at 50 feet is possible.

 

[DWalt]

My chrono results with factory Winchester .38 S&W 146 grain ammo are about the same, my velocities are in the range of 600 f/s, which is a very light load. I've fired many hundreds of that load and other light smokeless reloads with 125 grain bullets in two S&W .38DAs and one old H&R with no problems whatsoever. Nothing really wrong with using BP reloads, but they will gunk up your revolver in a hurry and are best avoided unless you enjoy smoke and grime.
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Returning - I checked my chrono records (from 2008) and the Winchester 146 grain factory loads mentioned went 605 f/s in my 6" .38DA. My normal reload using a 125 grain .358 lead truncated cone bullet shows an average in the high 600s, say 670-680 f/s. At my last local gun show two weeks ago, no shortage of .38 S&W factory ammo - I saw 6 boxes (all Winchester), and there may well have been more I didn't see, as I wasn't specifically looking for it. Asking price was $30/box, but I wasn't buying.

 

[carto]

Thanks all - you have boosted my confidence level. Once I get clean check from my gs, I will give it a try.

 

[srp707]

My chrono results with factory Winchester .38 S&W 146 grain ammo are about the same, my velocities are in the range of 600 f/s, which is a very light load. I've fired many hundreds of that load and other light smokeless reloads with 125 grain bullets in two S&W .38DAs and one old H&R with no problems whatsoever. Nothing really wrong with using BP reloads, but they will gunk up your revolver in a hurry and are best avoided unless you enjoy smoke and grime.
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Returning - I checked my chrono records (from 2008) and the Winchester 146 grain factory loads mentioned went 605 f/s in my 6" .38DA. My normal reload using a 125 grain .358 lead truncated cone bullet shows an average in the high 600s, say 670-680 f/s. At my last local gun show two weeks ago, no shortage of .38 S&W factory ammo - I saw 6 boxes (all Winchester), and there may well have been more I didn't see, as I wasn't specifically looking for it. Asking price was $30/box, but I wasn't buying.

I have a center break with a 1885 Pat number on it and when I traded for it I was told it's black powder. So your saying the 125 G .38 DA will work fine? I want to use this gun as a carry gun because it's so kool and I like retro syuff. I'll see if I can add a picture so let me know. Tom

 

[glowe]

Tom, if your revolver had that much original nickel, I would advise you not to carry it, but looks like a very nice re-nickel, so go for it. The sideplate joint should look practically invisible on a factory gun and I believe the trigger and guard should be case hardened.

Are you sure that you have a .38? It looks like a .32 cylinder length, but hard to tell. If it is a .32, it was probably made after 1898. Factory ammo should be fine in this S&W.

 

[Dosgatos]

Sure looks like a .38 2rd Model to me, which has the release on the frame. The .32 1st Model has the release on the barrel. The 2nd Model is from 1887-1890, so I'd be hesitant to shoot modern ammo with it. Definitely a refinish, but a very nice one. If this is your carry piece you can use a J-frame .38 speed loader. You might have to file down the little nubbins which hold the cartridge rim, but it will work.

 

[glowe]

You are right, by the angle of the picture, the cylinder looked too short for a .38, but I did not notice the frame latch.

.38 S&W factory ammunition chronographs about 100 fps lower than BP. .32 and .38 ammo has always been loaded with the older top break models in mind and are very light loads. I have shot both and the recoil on the BP rounds is noticeably higher than smokeless loads.

 

[srp707]

Thanks for the info. It is a short .38 as I can slip a 38 special bullet in it with ease but of course it's way too long So should I stick with BP loads if I can find them. I have several nice carry type weapons but this thing is so new and retro that I love it but never fired it. I also have a lemmon squeezer 1880 date release on barrell not frame in original just ok condition and also is a .38 but I want rid of it. It is a nice refinish and they didn't do the trigger guard correctly but other wise an excellent job.

 

[Elroy]

Lately I've been enjoying this 38 DA. Fresh from the range. We have put 200 rounds down range and it just keeps getting better. The bore is much brighter and the rifling looks much better. A little use is knocking the rust out of it.

Only problem is the 38 S&W Ammo isn't on every shelf. When you do find it in stock, it's not exactly cheap.

Typically it's around $32 a box.

Well I stopped in an old gun store last week that has been in the same spot for a good 30 years. Basically just stopped in to look around. Found they had maybe 20 or 30 top breaks of various manufacture on display. Out of that lot, less than 5 or 6 were still functional. There rest were "non-shooters". Broken in some fashion or another. Parts guns if you will on sale for between $50 and $75

Well we asked if they had any 38 S&W Ammo? Sure enough and they pulled this off the shelf. The white plastic box in the middle. On sale for $19.00.

Check out that muzzle velocity:

390 Meters / Second or around 1,200 Feet / Second. That's a hot little round AND you'll note it's a full metal jacket. Those Fins must like their 38's

Question is: Are we going to have a broken weapon as well??

 

[glowe]

Wow - that is some fast ammo! I would hesitate shooting that in an N Frame, let alone a top break. I hope you bought that for show and not go in your little 38.

 

[jrhoney]

Wow, 1200 fps?!
Do you have any way of sending that stuff across a chronograph to confirm what the label says?

 

[OFT II]

That box originally had 9mm Parabellum in it. Someone repacked it with British .380 military ammo which is the same as the 38 S&W.

Edited to add: I believe that is the 178 grain load so I wouldn't shoot it in my old top break.

 

[BearBio]

I shoot a light 146 gr load in both my Victory and 4th Model hammerless. No problems but I rarely shoot the topbreak.

 

[Hearsedriver]

Would 80 grain .38 SW be a little too hot for the old top breaks?

 

[glowe]

It is not the weight of the bullet, but the powder load that determines if it is too hot or not. Factory .38 S&W are loaded with 146 grain bullets and are safe to shoot in a good condition top-break.

If reloading an 80 grain bullet, make sure to use published data and do not make stuff up, since too much powder can lead to high pressures even with a light bullet. I have not seen loads for 80 grain bullets in .38 S&W, but if velocities are below 700 fps, you should be good to go.

 

[Elroy]

That box originally had 9mm Parabellum in it. Someone repacked it with British .380 military ammo which is the same as the 38 S&W.

Excellent observation

That packaging was definitely in question. Closer examination of the torn off label does in fact reveal a ghost image of 9mm. Thank you

Further examination of these ammunition examples reveal these facts as well:

The Winchester ammunition (in the white box on the left ) is nickel plated. The $15.50 price is box dated 1998 and was included with the weapon when I purchased it last fall.

The case diameter on this older Winchester ammunition measures right at .383". It will NOT fit into a 38 Special cylinder

The currently available Remington .38 S&W ammunition (green and yellow box on the left) measures .380 and will fit a 38 special cylinder without a problem.

The full metal jacket examples measure about .381

So the question remains:

Are we going to have a broken weapon as well??

 

[B. Burris]

I am a brand new member but have been a gunsmith for 40 plus years. I hope I don't step on any toes here, but in my humble opinion, the Top-break Smiths should only be fired with black powder loads. Smokeless propellants have a very different burning rate and peak-pressure point than black powder or pyrodex type substitutes. Also, the metallurgy back then was not quite up to todays standards. Those old alloys, unlike cheese, do not get stronger with age. They are beautiful old revolvers and probably the finest ever produced. it would be a shame, in my opinion, to risk damaging such a classic piece of history. Respectfully, Bill

 

[glowe]

Bill,

Welcome to the Forum. I am afraid that we will always have this debate, whether it is with antique revolvers, shotguns, or rifles.

You should be in a good position, with your 40 years of gunsmithing, to comment on actual guns observed that have been damaged by smokeless powder. How many have you seen that can be described with these problems and just not normal wear?

There is information out there where tests were conducted on BP and smokeless powders in shotguns, where the pressures were measured at several points over the length of the barrel. Results were that BP and Clays loads posted identical pressure curves at every measurement point along the barrel, and I am confident that this data can be reproduced in other weapons. Problem is that few will do it, or publish the results.

I think I can speak for most collectors out there that no one shoots their collector pieces often. Most people love to see these engineering marvels from the 1800's do the job they used to, but realize that it is not a good idea to shoot a box of ammo every time they go to the range, mostly because there are no spare parts available.

Anyway, I am a firm believer that if one loads with the proper smokeless powders that chronograph at 100 to 200 fps lower than original BP loads, you will do less damage to the gun and will generate lower pressures. American ammunition manufacturers have done this for years with the old cartridges and I am still waiting to see a photo or description of a gun ruined by prudent and proper use of smokeless powders.

I am not from Missouri, but I wish someone would "Show Me".