Aim point vs Eotech?

[nyeti]

Nice to have information from the horses mouth.

Agree with the evaluation of the PRO. Now if they just could have made the mount clamp knob a wee bit smaller.........

Well, there is a story to that as well. Anybody who used the Comp M2's and M3's in the military will relate to this. The original QRP mount used on the original issue sights SUCKED. Those were not an Aimpoint idea, that was forced on Aimpoint by the Army. Those mounts were compatible with a mount already in use for night vision equipment. What do you do with night vision gear? Put it on and take it off the gun often. The problem is for use on the primary optic, they are not supposed to come off. This is why you see older sights wired and dummy corded onto their rifles. With the upgraded Comp M4 (which I think is the finest and most rugged red dot ever made....just tank heavy), the mount was changed to the QRP2 that addresses the issue of sights falling off guns. Yes, that knob is big, but it works really well.
When Aimpoint did the PRO, they solved the biggest problems with the Comp M3. They are GREAT sights, with one issue. THey are a 30mm tube and use a ring to mount. The problem with rings is that Aimpoint has no control over what rings are used and no control over who mounts them. I have seen it ALL over the years. With the PRO, the sights are mounted in Aimpoint's rings at the factory. They used the same upgraded base of the Comp M4. Two benefits. It is a great mount that is pretty versatile if you want to keep it. If you want to change to an aftermarket like a LaRue, GDI, GGG or similar, you can just use a Comp M4 mount screwed into the bottom, and leave the factory mounted ring portion in place so there are no issues with the ring portion and it is easy to do without messing it up.

Hope this helps and provides some information to make the best selection of a sight for your needs based on good information rather than rumors, myths, and what people think or heard somewhere.

 

[WR Moore]

Thank you good sir, most interesting. I don't deny the mount works and works extremely well, it's just that that knob is robust. I can certainly understand why they did what they did, especially if you're making the thing three ball bearing proof.

The only issue I've had is that the person who mounted the sight in the rings at the factory didn't quite torque the ring screws enough. Easily solved, but the wandering groups were a bit puzzling at first.

 

[SmokeStack Lightning]

Thank you good sir, most interesting. I don't deny the mount works and works extremely well, it's just that that knob is robust. I can certainly understand why they did what they did, especially if you're making the thing three ball bearing proof.

The only issue I've had is that the person who mounted the sight in the rings at the factory didn't quite torque the ring screws enough. Easily solved, but the wandering groups were a bit puzzling at first.

The scope rings on my Aimpoint Pro came from the shop with the srews torqued to 8 inch/pounds. And no blue Locktite.

 

[Predog18]

Aimpoint

Good enough for the ell aye vee = good enough for me!

Vickers not only prefers Aimpoint but went so far as to say Eotech is trash due to witnessing too many failures. I've only used a PRO and 512 and prefer the PRO for my purposes.

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

IIRC, EOTech had issues with alkaline batteries leaking and battery drain even when shut off, and also batteries mounted in line with recoil pounding on the battery connections. But with the transversely mounted CR123 design I figured that the reliability issues were over. What problems are they having now?

 

[Rastoff]

Enough of all this bickering! EOTech is best because I have one. How can you refute logic like that?

 

[WR Moore]

To borrow a quote: "It's your gunfight, lose it anyway you want." I believe Clint Smith gets credit.

"Best" is relative-unless you're an ad guy for Mercedes [or in purchasing where best=cheapest]. Courtesy of work I've had the opportunity to see/test some truly amazing optical devices. However, in many cases, if you could afford the device, you don't need to concern yourself with such triffles. You'd have minions for that.

 

[CatSnipah]

Lol "Eotech is trash".

Wow, what a clown post.

So trashy that several special operations units use them, exclusively.

I don't care which you choose...aimpoint and Eotech are both phenomenal. But to act like one is trash is folly.

 

[Rastoff]

Do you think my EOTech will cowitness with my Aimpoint?

 

[nyeti]

Thank you good sir, most interesting. I don't deny the mount works and works extremely well, it's just that that knob is robust. I can certainly understand why they did what they did, especially if you're making the thing three ball bearing proof.

The only issue I've had is that the person who mounted the sight in the rings at the factory didn't quite torque the ring screws enough. Easily solved, but the wandering groups were a bit puzzling at first.

While we are answering questions. There is a good reason for this. When the PRO was first introduced, the screws were all Loctited and torqued from the factory. This was the way to go in my mind, but there were tons of issues with people buying sights and then wanting to put them in after market rings or optics mounts. They ended up destroying screws or not being able to get them apart and this generated a lot of complaints and issues. Now they are simply mounted and shipped with basic initial torque settings. I tell everyone I train that I recommend removing each screw individually, Locktite applied and then reinstalled and tightened if you are going to use the factory mount. This is sort of a case of damned if you do, damned if you don't.

As far as Special Operations use......... I can just about guarantee that the way EoTechs are used and maintained operationally in those units that use them are not the way you are using and storing them. Larry Vickers is far from some guy who doesn't know what he is talking about. Also, you will probably note that most of the guys who leave those will go to Aimpoints when they start buying sights for themselves and using them in their training businesses.

 

[Oldsalt66]

When using a rifle, I prefer the Eotech Reticle's holographic window, 65 MOA ring and 1 MOA Dot over the Aimpoint's single dot tube because I find it much, much, faster to acquire a sight picture.

I'm in the camp that believes an AR 15 carbine is preferable over a handgun or shotgun for home defense.

 

[rojodiablo]

Yeah, those videos are great. I would like to see the same tests run with an EOTech.

I have one mounted which has 2 tours in Iraq, and 1 tour thru A-stan...... and a hit while riding in a rig that was taken apart by an IED. Yes, we had to repair the battery terminal a little; but it works perfectly, and held the same zero after the blast. And the rifle was about 40 feet from the Humvee after the blast. I'd venture to say the Eotech is very, very durable.

 

[vdotmatrix]

Geeeez, you got money.

 

[Mushki]

You have to love how everyone is quoting the guy who currently sells aimpoints.

Funny thing is that he stated he choose an eotech when he was spending our tax dollars and that his vision doesn't allow him to benifit from an aim point, meaning he wouls spend his money on an eotech. Seems as though the only time he would spend money on an aimpoint was yours when he sold it.

I think that is all I need to hear

That and I spent my money on an eotech

 

[RDFabsRep]

You have to love how everyone is quoting the guy who currently sells wi points.

Funny thing is that he stated he choose an eotech when he was spending our tax dollars and that his vision doesn't allow him to benifit from an aim point, meaning he wouls spend his money on an eotech. Seems as though the only time he would spend money on an wi point was yours when he sold it.

I think that is all I need to hear

That and I spent my money on an eotech��

Alright...what in the world is a "wi point," and which poster exactly are you referring to?

 

[Mushki]

Wi point must have been an auto correct error

I am referring to post 22 and his subsequent posts.

Truth be told I am sure both are good optics, just wanted to make a point that many times the guy trying to sell you on something praises it for reasons other than what is stated.

 

[Rastoff]

Truth be told I am sure both are good optics, just wanted to make a point that many times the guy trying to sell you on something praises it for reasons other than what is stated.

What do you mean by, "praises it for reasons other than what is stated"? From what I've read, what nyeti has said is just the truth. It seems to be what he observed.

I may or may not agree that one is tougher than the other, but you can't deny battery life.

Today I did some practicing with a friend for upcoming class. He has an Aimpoint Comp M3 and I have an EOTech 556.A65 HWS. At 7 yards all my hits could fit in a dime, his, not so much. At 15 yards I was faster and my group was on target and smaller. At 25 yards it was a draw. At 50 yards my groups were a little smaller. We were shooting timed controlled pairs at a torso sized target. Close in were head shots in a 3"x4" rectangle and further back was to the chest area.

I believe the difference was due to reticle. The EOTech reticle gives me a little more control. The 1MOA dot allows a tiny bit more precision at distance.

In the end though, I'm just splitting hairs here. We both have approximately the same experience with the AR style gun, but I have a little more training. Give both of use about 500 more rounds down range and our times and accuracy will be similar regardless of optic.

I really like my EOTech. Even so, I also like the Comp M3. My next purchase will be one of these:
Comp M3
Comp M4
PRO (I like this one, but I have shot the M3 a bunch. It's hard to not like what you have experience with.)
EXPS2-2

Notice that there are three Aimpoints in there, but only one EOTech.

 

[red dragon]

+1 Aimpoint. Size and battery life.

 

[78Staff]

You have to love how everyone is quoting the guy who currently sells aimpoints.

Funny thing is that he stated he choose an eotech when he was spending our tax dollars and that his vision doesn't allow him to benifit from an aim point, meaning he wouls spend his money on an eotech. Seems as though the only time he would spend money on an aimpoint was yours when he sold it.

I think that is all I need to hear

That and I spent my money on an eotech

I think you are interpolating too much from those posts, really... I took from those posts he contracted EOTechs originally, and due to issues with those he's moved on to Aimpoint. Nothing wrong with an EOTech, if that's what the user wants.

Now I do run a T1, I choose it over the EOTech b/c the EOTech reticle fuzzes out on me due to a slight astigmatism. I also like the always on function of the Aimpoint, and the smaller size and weight. But that doesn't mean the EOTech is junk, or that someone won't prefer it for other reasons.

As for the "Torture Test videos", personally I think the are kind of gimmicky, but plenty of people seem to like them so I bet Larry will keep on doing them.

BTW, is Larry sponsored by both Daniel Defense and BCM? Seems like a conflict of interest there... Or did he leave one for the other?

 

[nyeti]

You have to love how everyone is quoting the guy who currently sells aimpoints.

Funny thing is that he stated he choose an eotech when he was spending our tax dollars and that his vision doesn't allow him to benifit from an aim point, meaning he wouls spend his money on an eotech. Seems as though the only time he would spend money on an aimpoint was yours when he sold it.

I think that is all I need to hear

That and I spent my money on an eotech��

I'll answer this and bow out, as its not why I am on this forum. Now that its personal and my integrity is being questioned.

Yep, I put E/O Techs into my agency, and shot them extensively in both training and used them in the field. I shot and trained far more than most cops. I started seeing major issues with battery life, ergonomics and holding zero. I switched to Aimpoint. We also had horrific issues with the E/O techs with our SWAT guys who were issued the sights. Every single SWAT callout I could remember somebody had an optics failure of either turning itself off or the batteries dying. Then they just started breaking. By the time they were switched out to Aimpoint PRO's when the PRO's came out, the failure rate was 80%. SO those taxpayer purchased E/O Tech's were essentially an aquarium for the iron sights. E/O tech also stopped any sort of warranty work. If you wanted them fixed, you had to pay for it. By the way, due to failures, irons had to be run in the up position with the E/O techs. So as far as that goes, while I do contract work training folks on Aimpoints and answering questions and demo'ing the sights, I don't actually "sell" Aimpoints.

One of the things I do when demonstrating sights is throw them across parking lots and concrete sidewalks. My Comp M4 (that was personally owned prior to working for Aimpoint) has been removed from a rifle, thrown across asphalt or parking lots and remounted with no failures or zero shift 1,000 times. It is also a high use demo gun with well over 25,000 rounds through it with the sight on the gun with zero optics failures. It was retired from its 1000th throw at SHOT show 2 years ago. It has had to have three replacement QRP2 mounts added due to extensive damage to the mounts. I have thrown this in front of the E/O Tech guys, and offered any of their guys I have been at demo's at if they want to join in the fun. They have never accepted (I also get along great with a lot of their reps and have known one of them for over 25 years, so it isn't a personal thing and they are good guys).

If you like E/O tech's, awesome for you. They look like TV sets, have neat reticles, and are visually appealing. Many think they are faster (I prefer to see times on drills rather than they "feel" faster) on all out drills. I can set up plenty of very applicable drills that may change folks mind on what "fast" is that is very specific to proper use of force in the United States. Keep in mind, I went through all of this myself. It's not like I just came up with this stuff from reading gun magazines and reading gun forums. I logistically supported an E/O Tech equipped team for a lot of years. I was the guy who had to get issues fixed, order batteries, and deal with all the various issues. I also have run the E/O tech through several high round count classes with guys like Bill Jeans and Ken Hackathorn. So, I have a bunch of time shooting the E/O tech, training with them, supporting them, and using them in the field. With that background, I made the personal decision to spend my own money to replace my E/O Techs with Aimpoints long before doing contract Pro Staff work for Aimpoint when I retired from Law Enforcement. I think it also says something that unlike "sales reps", Aimpoint actually uses a couple of guys who have very extensive field and training experience on these things. My partner has extensive time at a training academy for folks deploying overseas that issued thousands of E/O Techs and has seen every conceivable issue out there with them. Like me, he was shooting an Aimpoint on his own stuff long before doing some work for Aimpoint.

So, I'll leave it to the readership here to decide if maybe I have a clue about what I am talking about and if the previous information given is worthwhile. In the future, you can go back to listening to folks who likely have far less time on these systems to get your information.