Aimpoints or Red Dots

[Navy vet]

I have a Holosun SCS on my G19 Gen 5 MOS and a Holosun 507 X2 G on my M&P 5.7 and G43x MOS. Absolutely love them. Green Dots are much easier to see and acquire in a hurry. I had my G43x slide modified to accept a direct bolt on (no adapter plate) I prefer Holosun 507K because of the shake awake feature. The Holosun dots do not require removal to change out battery. (re-zeroing required if removed) Although I've had mine over a year and battery still going good. I carry the 43x everywhere.

 

[Law-dog]

Dot sights are probably the greatest crutch you can put on a gun. NOT for a concealed carry piece that must be employed fast, teaching CCW since 1996, and they just slow you down too much.

But for targets, fun, gaming, and most shooting events they solve lots of problems and make groups smaller.

Green is seen my the eye much better, does not matter if it is a dot sight or a laser, the human eye sees it better day or night. That said, a green dot looking over a light works very well at night.

I have no suggestion of brand, but size is a big deal. Find the smallest device you can, it also matters when you try to find a holster, the bigger they are the harder they are to carry.

Dots are not a substitute for lasers. Lasers are for nights and dim light only. As to lasers, green is also the best, again based on the human eye nothing else.

I have several and used them over the years, mostly for targets and plinking and all are red. I also have one of the Green Viridian dot sights that came as a free rebate recently from Smith and Wesson. I placed it on my new M and P 5.7 x 28. I fired it as recently as 2 days ago and it is a great addition for target shooting. At night it is also an excellent addition when supplemented by security lighting or a light on the gun. The Green Viridian dot sights sell for $250-$279. I do not think cost or brand is much of a consideration. I have $40 dot sights that are 15 years old that have never failed, just saying. If you are new to dot sights, might start with an inexpensive one. There are dozens and dozens that get great reviews, it is just part of the technology explosion, they can make good stuff cheap when they sell it in volume.

Last comment. Like anything you add to a handgun, being able to use the handgun with only one hand is what separates value in a defensive shooting. Most robberies, home invasions and such require you to have a light, a phone, or other object in your off hand and your best opportunity to survive is firing with only one hand. Usually they are close and you do not have time to use the sights, however, if you do need the sights, one hand firing is what tells you the value of any sight, especially the dot sight. I find the dot sights slow me down a lot when firing one hand, in fact studies have shown, they slow down everyone with 2 hands, so they will naturally be slower with one hand in a defensive shooting.

To the contrary we are now seeing them on police guns, for a very different reason. Too many innocents have been shot by police, lots in New York. So, they are forcing cops to use dot sights, which requires them to take more time and make better shots, and that does make sense, it protects innocent people and saves lawsuits against police. Again, it slows them down and makes them get a better sight picture before firing.

FWIW

 

[Rodan]

Dot sights are probably the greatest crutch you can put on a gun. NOT for a concealed carry piece that must be employed fast, teaching CCW since 1996, and they just slow you down too much.

*snip*

To the contrary we are now seeing them on police guns, for a very different reason. Too many innocents have been shot by police, lots in New York. So, they are forcing cops to use dot sights, which requires them to take more time and make better shots, and that does make sense, it protects innocent people and saves lawsuits against police. Again, it slows them down and makes them get a better sight picture before firing.

Here we go again...

Your statement suggests a fundamental misunderstanding of how a dot should be used on a defensive/combat handgun, and the benefits it provides. And law enforcement is NOT using dots to slow cops down. Dots are being used to improve performance.

The primary benefit of a dot is allowing a threat focused sight picture... you never focus on the dot, like you would on a front sight and you keep both eyes open. Shooters are slower when first transitioning because they are still in the habit of bringing their focus back to the gun, looking for the front sight. Once you attain competence with a handgun mounted optic, you will be faster because you are only looking at the target. The problem is it takes time to break long ingrained habits/skills and the longer you have been shooting, the more time it takes. Many don't have the patience, or fail to put in the time.

As an LE instructor since the 1990s, I've seen a lot of fads come and go. Handgun optics are not one of them. We got serious about the training a few years before I retired. In those few years I taught several hundred LE shooters to use dot sights, both in basic academy and in-service training, and I have personally observed that speed and accuracy was improved in almost every case.

For anyone interested in why dot sights work, and how they can improve your shooting, I suggest reading Aaron Cowan's white paper on the subject: http://www.kentuckytacticalofficers.../sage_dynamics_pistol_red_dot_white_paper.pdf

 

[Narragansett]

""Anyway, good advice and varying opinions, but from my observations, Trijicon or Holosun are two I’d look at.""

I was going to look at the Olight> I have one of their keychain flashlights that has lasted 5+ years. The warranty is fantastic as are the reviews

 

[Kanewpadle]

Here we go again...

Your statement demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of how a dot should be used on a defensive/combat handgun, and the benefits it provides. And law enforcement is NOT using dots to slow cops down. Dots are being used to improve performance.

The primary benefit of a dot is allowing a threat focused sight picture... you never focus on the dot, like you would on a front sight and you keep both eyes open. Shooters are slower when first transitioning because they are still in the habit of bringing their focus back to the gun, looking for the front sight. Once you attain competence with a handgun mounted optic, you will be faster because you are only looking at the target. The problem is it takes time to break long ingrained habits/skills and the longer you have been shooting, the more time it takes. Many don't have the patience, or fail to put in the time.

As an LE instructor since the 1990s, I've seen a lot of fads come and go. Handgun optics are not one of them. We got serious about the training a few years before I retired. In those few years I taught several hundred LE shooters to use dot sights, both in basic academy and in-service training, and I have personally observed that speed and accuracy was improved in almost every case.

For anyone interested in why dot sights work, and how they can improve your shooting, I suggest reading Aaron Cowan's white paper on the subject: http://www.kentuckytacticalofficers.../sage_dynamics_pistol_red_dot_white_paper.pdf

Spot on brother.

I’m living proof that they work.

I researched them for over a year. Read many articles. Watched many videos. Asked a lot of questions. And shot other people’s guns.

I don’t see the sights well and my hands shake a little. The red dot corrected that.

The only problem I have is finding the dot from the draw. But I'm getting better after only 400 rounds.

I’ll get there with more practice.

 

[Kanewpadle]

""Anyway, good advice and varying opinions, but from my observations, Trijicon or Holosun are two I’d look at.""

I was going to look at the Olight> I have one of their keychain flashlights that has lasted 5+ years. The warranty is fantastic as are the reviews

I have several Olight products. I wouldn’t recommend them if I thought they were junk.

I have a light on my Mossberg. One on my Glock 19. And 6 or 7 flashlights. And now the Osight.

 

[oldcorps76]

I still use irons on range toys and field pieces, where conditions are more controlled and I can wear the right glasses. Defensive pieces are gradually tensioning to a red dot (or holographic sigh), where I can see and dot an entire target unobscured by Patridge-type sights. A little more certainty in a world of predators with a supporting cast of criminal-loving activists and gun-hating Soros-prosecutors.

 

[Glenn R. McMannly]

Unproven electronic doodads will never replace irons.

 

[M1A4ME]

The reason I asked about hunting or target shooting was because a couple of us in college used to squirrel hunt with our .22 pistols. I used my Ruger Mk1 5.5" bull barrel and my buddy used his High Standard (don't remember the model but it was a nice one). We did a lot of practicing, finding out what ammo shot best in our pistols and we had a lot of fun. Not a lot of squirrels came home with us. We did find out somethings about how hard it can be to sneak up on squirrels. We felt the need to get closer and it's nearly as exciting as deer hunting at times.

We were head shot guys. Iron sights were good when we were in our twenties. Not so much now. If I were going to try it these days it would be the smallest dot I could get so I could see the squirrels head around the dot. Some things aren't easy, but they're still fun.

 

[Kanewpadle]

Unproven electronic doodads will never replace irons.

You would be correct.

Red dots were never intended to replace iron sights.

 

[minconrevo]

Red dots do require that the shooter know the vertical mechanical offset for various distances, due to bullet drop, as does use of irons or scopes. Typically distance accuracy by many red dot users does markedly improve over irons. Dots aren't magic; time and effort is required to learn to use them well.

Too small a dot can cause difficulty, as well as too big a dot; depends on the application. For a rifle, a 1 MOA with a 30 MOA circle works for many. For a handgun, something around a 3 MOA dot works for most as a best middle ground for ample accuracy and quick acquisition. Some see the more common red color better than green; try both. The background you typically work against should also be considered in color choice.

 

[Shooter308]

I’m a little slow getting into the 21st Century and mostly go for big orange or green dot front sights. But… I bought a Shield SMSc for a G43x several years back. Didn’t work with it much cause I couldn’t stand the gun it was mounted in. I’ve since picked up an Sig 365XL cut for red dot but haven’t got that far yet. Nothing else in my collection has the slide cut. Anyway, good advice and varying opinions, but from my observations, Trijicon or Holosun are two I’d look at. They seem to have the best street reputation. For a rimfire, it may not matter as much, but I’d still lean toward one of either.

I like Holosun I have two on two Glocks and they work fine. Both are battery and solar. I also have Swampfox Justice II on my Glock and Springfield Echelon and and Leopold Delta Pro and Vortex Defender CCW on my Carry Glock 48. The trick to using a Dot pistol with either red or green is to focus on the target and spot you want to shoot at. If your dot is zeroed correctly you should be very close to the spot on the target. Don't focus on the dot it is going to were it is zeroed focus on the target thru the glass. Also I like as large of opening that works with the firearm.

 

[walkin' trails]

I like Holosun I have two on two Glocks and they work fine. Both are battery and solar. I also have Swampfox Justice II on my Glock and Springfield Echelon and and Leopold Delta Pro and Vortex Defender CCW on my Carry Glock 48. The trick to using a Dot pistol with either red or green is to focus on the target and spot you want to shoot at. If your dot is zeroed correctly you should be very close to the spot on the target. Don't focus on the dot it is going to were it is zeroed focus on the target thru the glass. Also I like as large of opening that works with the firearm.

When I bought the Shield SMSc for my Glock 43x, I noted it had the biggest window. I’d also looked at the available Trijicons and Holosuns the shop has. Both of the models they showed me seemed to have glass distortion. The Shield was clear. Anyway, it wasn’t the dot as much as it was the gun I mounted it on. The smallest gun I carried professionally was a G43. I don’t mind the way it shot. I was a bit disappointed with the 43x, however. I have arthritis and some tissue damage in my strong hand and a few rounds from the 43x went a long way. I ended up going with the 365, and at present, standard pressure Gold Dots. As said, my 365xl is cut, but I haven’t had the time to mess with optics. Might put the Shield on it if it will fit… for now anyway.

I took the Buildibg Shooters class a while back from Dustin Salomon. Among other concepts, it is based on visual stimulation. It got me wondering if, with iron sights, teaching shooters to focus on the front sight causes them not to see the rest of the picture, ie, a bad guy dropping his gun, someone wondering in between, etc. There were several red do shooters in the class, but I didn’t focus on how they were doing compared to me. So my attitude is slowly changing.