Aircrew sidearms of WWII Need info

[ElmerKeith]

Sauer & Sohn of Suhl manufactured a special Luftwaffe Drilling, a side-by-side shotgun with a rifled barrel between-under the to shotgun barrels. Shotgun caliber was 16/65, rifled barrel was 9,3x74 R.
The gun was supplied in a tin box with some accessories like ammo, tools and so on. This gun really is a collector's item and very rare.
Beware of the fakes on the market!!!
The gun was intended to be used by the shot down air crew to supply themselves with food.

 

[calmex]

My late friend Col. Phil Maher flew P-51's off of Saipan and Iwo Jima. He was issued a 1911 .45 of Colt manufacture made in 1912 or 1913. We still have the gun, but I don't have it personally and the person who does is out of town so I can't call him up to check the serial number. It is still in excellent shape.
Maher told me once that he stopped carrying the pistol with him after the first few missions. I asked him "Why?" and he replied that he had come to the conclusion that if he didn't make it back in his airplane, then he would have been floating in the ocean.
I remember him saying, "Some guys got rescued, and some guys we never heard from again. I suppose I could take being in the water for a while, but I had nightmares that the only person I would ever shoot with that pistol would be ME because I had lost hope. I stopped carrying the pistol when I flew after that and carried an extra canteen full of water with me instead."
Maher did shoot a Japanese Sapper on Iwo Jima while helping guard the airplanes, but he used an M-97 Trench gun for that shot. As far as I know, he never shot anything with his .45 other than targets and metal plates.

 

[calmex]

Actually, it was TWO friends, both named Phil. One used the S & W Pre 27 in the Marines and the other a 1911 as a Pilot.
The BEST stories came from my Dad, but he was Canadian Army and did not use anything that would be of interest here. (Principally a Bren gun.) It was from practising for 30+ years getting my Dad to talk that enabled me to -- later in life -- get the two Phils to spill the beans like children talking about their Halloween Candy intake on a good year.
Most of the time -- wracking my brains (what little I have) I cannot think of anything in particular they might have said. Then I will see something, or read something like this thread about Aircrew pistols, and something one or the other of them may have said or talked about will come back to me. Guess I'm getting senile.

 

[Clyde from Carolina]

What an interesting thread. I really enjoy these alot. I will say that I seem to recall one of the well known Brit aces did in fact carry a .32 Beretta 1935, at least I have read that in a few places. Don't know if it was Tucker or not.

Cal, I certainly find the commonwealth stuff utterly fascinating- though you're right- if not S&W I guess it is a bit off topic here. I have a real weakness for Lee Enfields, Webleys, Inglis Hi-Powers and all that.

Wish I could have been a fly on the wall when you're Dad was telling stories. BREN gun? Too cool !

 

[K22shooter]

Thanks for the great info and stories.

I read that the top German Stuka "Tank buster" pilot carried some type of .25 auto.
A book I used to own on military small arms (can't remember the title)had lots of info on how the Germans made extensive use of captured weapons, including a chart with the German model number given to foreign small arms. There was even a photo of a German prison camp guard armed with a .303 No4 British Enfield.

Thanks again!

 

[calmex]

That was probably Rudel, whom someone already mentioned I think.

When I first came down here to San Miguel, I kept hearing about this guy who had fought in the German Army against the Russians. I was eventually able to meet him (our mission; seek out W.W.II vets -- make 'em talk!). He had emigrated to Canada after getting out of the Gulag in 1952, and retired down here to SMAGTO (San Miguel de Allende, Guanajuato). Anyway, he had been a Forward Air Controller for the Luftwaffe.
He had a lot of really interesting stories; he had gone to Stalingrad with 6th Army and gotten out in early December before they closed the airport. He told me that being Luftwaffe had distinct advantages in being able to get on a transport. He was the only person I ever met who could claim to have been in Stalingrad at the time of the fighting and probably really was.
Anyway, Konrad (his name was Konrad Plumke) had joined the Luftwaffe in hopes of avoiding the fighting, as he was rather tall and figured they would not make him a fighter pilot. Well, they made him a forward air controller and put him on the ground. He rolled his eyes when he told me this and said; "Zo much for my plan." After Stalingrad, he was sent to fight with one of the S.S. Panzer Divisions (I think it was Das Reich) and was eventually captured in the 3rd Battle for Kharkov in around April of 1944 I believe. An explosive from a Russian Tank Killing squad knocked out the Tiger I he was riding aboard and killed the entire crew and left him bleeding from the nose and ears and mostly deaf.
He figured the Russians didn't shoot him because of his Airforce uniform, as opposed to what they would have done to him had he been wearing an S.S. tanker's uniform. He said; "Zey told me to keep valking East. So I did." Konrad had been issued a Sauer and Sohn 38H in .32 ACP as best as we could figure out. The Russians took that off of him before sending him walking.
He was another really interesting guy I got to talk to a few times. One of those people you meet and when you hear where they were and what they experienced you think to yourself; "You shouldn't be here." Konrad died about 1995 I guess, but I'm really glad I got to talk to him and get to know him a bit.
I guess Konrad would not qualify as "aircrew" even though he was Luftwaffe, but the fact he was issued a .32 and Rudel apparently had a .25 made me pause to think that the Luftwaffe didn't seem too interested in issuing heavy caliber pistols to the men. Anyway, this all brought dear old Konrad to mind so I retell the story here.

 

[calmex]

Moondawg, it's worse than that. They have almost all died off, there are not a lot of people left alive who were "there" for the great events -- or maybe I should say great turmoil -- that took place from 1934 - 1945.
Since when I was young, always encouraged by my Dad, I would talk the ears off of any W.W.II vet I could find. Some of them wouldn't talk to me and would send me scampering but over the years I perfected my technique and I think my absolute genuine interest in their stories and remembrances often "won me over" and got a lot of them to talk to me. In later years, I often found they would come and look me up on the advise of mutual friends and we would "chat". I have been so lucky to be able to talk to many of them from many different branches of service and from different countries as well.

At the end of "Bladerunner", the robot played by Rutger Hauer talks about the things he has seen with "his eyes", and when I get the chance to talk to these people who were there I always think of the things they had seen with "their eyes" that could only be related to those of us who weren't there with simple words, descriptions, the odd movement of the hand or the occasional quiver in their voices that really says so much.

Every winter for the past five years, this old German guy has been visiting San Miguel. He's like 95 now, and went into Russia as a Staff Officer with Von Paulus and then got transferred to Africa to be on Rommel's staff. Later, he worked for Von Arnim, and surrendered to the Americans with the Africa Korps when they packed it in. He is great to talk to -- never has to pay for his coffee when I'm around. I still chuckle when I think of him saying; "Wommel, Wommel got all ze news. Wommel loved to be in ze news. Oh, he was vewy brave, no doubt, but he loved ze news. Von Arnim...now ZHERE vas a gentleman! But you never hear of zis." Cracks me up.
I hope the old guy is still alive and healthy next winter and comes back to visit. I'll sit down and talk with guys like that anytime. Living history.
Anyway, this has nothing to do with the topic of aircrew sidearms, but you got me babbling again. I gotta go back to work. Cheers!

 

[calmex]

I wouldn't even want to imagine what it was like to be in the trenches in W.W. I. I only really ever talked to one W.W. I vet, a guy in a Old Folk's Home in Manitoba who had gone "over the top" on July 1, 1916 at the Somme and had also been at Paschendaele.
My Dad always used to say, "Thank God I didn't have to fight in the First War and Thank Jesus I didn't have to fight the Japs." It's just amazing what some people had to endure in the last century, and I guess that some of our good people are having to endure in this one.
Makes anything I ever did seem rather paltry by comparison.

 

[calmex]

It's interesting you mention playing pool. We used to go play snooker all winter because we didn't have an outdoor range. Oh, we would shoot our rifles outside during the winter, but not usually the pistols. So, we used to do all the shooting during our compressed summers and play pool all winter. We found playing pool to be about the closest thing in the '70's and '80's to sharpen our skills. (NOW they have airsoft and video games!) I remember nights during the Canadian winter when you could find a half-dozen guys playing pool in the old Velvet Rail all wearing I.P.S.C./Manitoba shirts.
Even today, if I get a chance to play the odd game of pool (because here in Mexico finding a decent pool table is an exercise in futility), I can usually quite hold my own.
Of course, now that I AM in Mexico, I can go shoot my handguns practically any day if I want to. I just wish we had the FREEDOM to buy whatever we wanted to buy and own whatever we wanted to own instead of the very limited amount of stuff they let us have...but then, I made my own choices, didn't I?

Without intention, we seem to have hijacked this thread. NOBODY is learning anything about Aircrew Weaponry right now, and I feel sorry to be the one responsible. Apologies.
Cheers!
Cal