Aircrew sidearms of WWII Need info

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K22shooter

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The US Army aircrews carried the 1911 .45 auto, and US Navy and Marine aviators carried the S&W M&P .38 Spec Victory model with 4" barrel. The Germans used various non frontline pistols. The Spanish Astra 9mm Models 400 and 600 were reported to be popular with Luftwaffe aircrews. I can guess about the other nations but would like to find some documentation, books etc.

Any recomendations for books or websites?
 
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The US Army aircrews carried the 1911 .45 auto, and US Navy and Marine aviators carried the S&W M&P .38 Spec Victory model with 4" barrel. The Germans used various non frontline pistols. The Spanish Astra 9mm Models 400 and 600 were reported to be popular with Luftwaffe aircrews. I can guess about the other nations but would like to find some documentation, books etc.

Any recomendations for books or websites?
 
Originally posted by Sebago Son:
I've seen Beretta 34's marked with the Regina Aeronuatica stamp.
Click to expand...

I used to own a Beretta 34 with the 8th Air Force logo engraved on it. Story was it was carried by a waist gunner in a shoulder holster.
 
Originally posted by walnutred:
Originally posted by Sebago Son:
I've seen Beretta 34's marked with the Regina Aeronuatica stamp.
Click to expand...

I used to own a Beretta 34 with the 8th Air Force logo engraved on it. Story was it was carried by a waist gunner in a shoulder holster.
Click to expand...

Bet that 34 was helpful when you ran out of .50BMG ammo and there were still a few FW-190's left!
icon_biggrin.gif


One of my best friends has a Browning 1922 that his dad carried in a shoulder holster under his blouse when he jumped with Mark Clark into Tito-Land..... he was a paratrooper, does that count?

Drew
 
I have a S&W M1917 .45 that my father took from a Luftwaffe pilot who belly landed his Bf109 in England and surrendered.

It is sort of a long story, but in general they carried a lot of different guns.

FWIW

Chuck

Originally posted by K22shooter:
The US Army aircrews carried the 1911 .45 auto, and US Navy and Marine aviators carried the S&W M&P .38 Spec Victory model with 4" barrel. The Germans used various non frontline pistols. The Spanish Astra 9mm Models 400 and 600 were reported to be popular with Luftwaffe aircrews. I can guess about the other nations but would like to find some documentation, books etc.

Any recomendations for books or websites?
Click to expand...
 
It's odd what shows up in combat zones. One of my cousins brought three firearms home from his tour in Vietnam, a 16ga Darne shotgun that he said he found in an abandoned plantation house, a 98 Mauser that he said came from a stash they found in a cave, and a 1922 Browning that he would not say where it came from.

He was a logistics officer with the Air Force and he hinted that the AF was a little more understanding about mementos than the Army. I couldn't fault his choices though.
 
AFAIK, Navy pilots who flew over vietnam carried pretty much whatever they felt like carrying. I don't know the actual rules, if there were any. I guess each pilot had a reason for what he chose, but the results were all different. I'm pretty sure that M&P's were issue; they certainly were fifteen years later.
 
Rudel, the famous Stuka pilot, carried a .25, but he didn't say what sort. Most Luftwaffe fighter pilots carried Walther PP's and similar arms. They were easier to wear while getting in and out of a cramped cockpit.

Enlisted Luftwaffe aircrew carried P-08's. Goering had a stake in a Luger making company, and ordered their guns for the Luftwaffe, eschewing the newer P-38. Aha! Heinrich Kreighoff company, for those Lugers.

Read, "THirty Seconds Over Tokyo," by Capt. Ted Lawson. Your library should have it or can get it via Interlibrary Loan. You will find some intersting answers in it.

T-Star
 
I'm aware of a personally owned 2" M&P RB that flew 30 missions over Europe in an 8th AF B-24
in '43-'44.

Good shooting.
 
Those interested in the subject might want to look up the C1 sustenance/survival vest to see some of the other stuff that U.S. aircrew carried in WW2. It's rather interesting.

I have a current issue holster/Molle style survival vest coming in soon that I ordered. I'm trying to get a deal on a Vietnam era one to go with it. I want to compare both to a Commercial Blackhawk vest to see how these type of things have evolved.
 
I am quite certain that I read somewhere that RAF ace Robert Stanford-Tuck had a .32 Beretta, but have no idea whether it was captured from the Italians or was something that he bought before the war began.

In, "Lancaster Target", the author mentioned that some of his pals playing a practical joke on another crew member found themselves facing a heavy automatc pistol when they forced open his door. But he didn't say which actual model or make the gun was.

Air Vice Marshal J.E. Johnson said that he was amused by the sort of pilot who checked his survival gear: compass, map, revolver, etc. before each flight. He preferred to think aggressively, and presume that he wouldn't be shot down, and need that gear. But he obviously saw it in use. He ended the war with 38 kills.

I've seen a photo of RAF pilots in North Africa with six-inch .38 M&P's in holsters meant for guns with five-inch barrels. The butts stuck way out.

Another reference mentioned that among the guns carried by Indian Air Force pilots were some Colt M-1917's. Must have been Lend-Lease. Wish I could recall which book it was. I think one about Spitfires.

People being what they are, bartering with infantry troops probably got some enemy sidearms into Allied hands, and the reverse.

Photo of Erich Hartmann show him wearing a typical .32 auto. Don't know what, probably the PP. But he was once told to leave his weapon and belt outside a room where he was going to meet Hitler, who was awarding him the diamonds or the swords (can't recall which) to his Knight's Cross. Hartmenn said that he would leave rather than be told that he couldn't be trusted to meet his Chancellor with his gun. Told this, Hitler rescinded the order and ignored his gun. Hartmann, the top scoring fighter pilot of all time, got his award. He had 352 kills at war's end. His crew chief was given a pistol by Hartmann that looked about like the one that Hartmann also carried. But it was holstered in tha photo that I saw.

T-Star
 
I have heard of a US bomber pilot flying out of England who carried a .32 Savage pistol in a jacket pocket.

Mark
 
Originally posted by Texas Star:
I am quite certain that I read somewhere that RAF ace Robert Stanford-Tuck had a .32 Beretta, but have no idea whether it was captured from the Italians or was something that he bought before the war began.

T-Star
Click to expand...

I believe that was a Mauser Hsc, that he had taken off a downed Luftwaffe pilot. Carried it in a boot. It is mentioned in his biography "Fly For Your Life," when he draws it in anger from his flight boot, over some incident don't recall...
 
My deceased father-in-law was a WWII B-26 pilot, and carried an issued .45 M1911. He wasn't fond of it, and didn't bother to bring it home from the ETO.

In 1948 he purchased a new S&W M&P square butt 4" .38 Special, which my son now has.
 
Somewhere I have a picture of my dad in WW2 by his PBY wearing overalls. He has an M3 holster with what looks like a S&W Victory.
 
I used to fly with an old flight engineer who had been in WW II. While in India a local pick pocket snared his watch and took off running down an alley. Sarge dropped him with one round to the thigh from his S&W .357 Magnum. A British military bobbie ended the pick pocket's carrer with one shot to the head from his .455 at close range.

Bill
 
I have a C-1 sustenance vest from WW2 on the way,if anyone is interested I can post pictures when it comes in. I don't have a Victory model, but when I scrounge one up, it'll make a heck of a nice accessory for it.

I ended up with a 1970ish Vietnam pilot's vest with holster, one of the current issue "Airsave" Molle vests, and a 1980s era USAF one to round out my impromptu collection.

I blame this cross posted thread for making me get these things. My washing machine is going to smell like the Army surplus store for a week.

Apparently the C-1 vests were sometimes used with a 1911 and sometimes with a Victory model, but I need to learn more about this. Just to confuse me further, the ad copy on the Vietnam vest called it a variant fitted with a leather 1911 holster instead of the "usual" holster for a .38.
 
Sauer & Sohn of Suhl manufactured a special Luftwaffe Drilling, a side-by-side shotgun with a rifled barrel between-under the to shotgun barrels. Shotgun caliber was 16/65, rifled barrel was 9,3x74 R.
The gun was supplied in a tin box with some accessories like ammo, tools and so on. This gun really is a collector's item and very rare.
Beware of the fakes on the market!!!
The gun was intended to be used by the shot down air crew to supply themselves with food.
 
My late friend Col. Phil Maher flew P-51's off of Saipan and Iwo Jima. He was issued a 1911 .45 of Colt manufacture made in 1912 or 1913. We still have the gun, but I don't have it personally and the person who does is out of town so I can't call him up to check the serial number. It is still in excellent shape.
Maher told me once that he stopped carrying the pistol with him after the first few missions. I asked him "Why?" and he replied that he had come to the conclusion that if he didn't make it back in his airplane, then he would have been floating in the ocean.
I remember him saying, "Some guys got rescued, and some guys we never heard from again. I suppose I could take being in the water for a while, but I had nightmares that the only person I would ever shoot with that pistol would be ME because I had lost hope. I stopped carrying the pistol when I flew after that and carried an extra canteen full of water with me instead."
Maher did shoot a Japanese Sapper on Iwo Jima while helping guard the airplanes, but he used an M-97 Trench gun for that shot. As far as I know, he never shot anything with his .45 other than targets and metal plates.
 
Actually, it was TWO friends, both named Phil. One used the S & W Pre 27 in the Marines and the other a 1911 as a Pilot.
The BEST stories came from my Dad, but he was Canadian Army and did not use anything that would be of interest here. (Principally a Bren gun.) It was from practising for 30+ years getting my Dad to talk that enabled me to -- later in life -- get the two Phils to spill the beans like children talking about their Halloween Candy intake on a good year.
Most of the time -- wracking my brains (what little I have) I cannot think of anything in particular they might have said. Then I will see something, or read something like this thread about Aircrew pistols, and something one or the other of them may have said or talked about will come back to me. Guess I'm getting senile.
 
What an interesting thread. I really enjoy these alot. I will say that I seem to recall one of the well known Brit aces did in fact carry a .32 Beretta 1935, at least I have read that in a few places. Don't know if it was Tucker or not.

Cal, I certainly find the commonwealth stuff utterly fascinating- though you're right- if not S&W I guess it is a bit off topic here. I have a real weakness for Lee Enfields, Webleys, Inglis Hi-Powers and all that.

Wish I could have been a fly on the wall when you're Dad was telling stories. BREN gun? Too cool !
 
Thanks for the great info and stories.

I read that the top German Stuka "Tank buster" pilot carried some type of .25 auto.
A book I used to own on military small arms (can't remember the title)had lots of info on how the Germans made extensive use of captured weapons, including a chart with the German model number given to foreign small arms. There was even a photo of a German prison camp guard armed with a .303 No4 British Enfield.

Thanks again!
 
That was probably Rudel, whom someone already mentioned I think.

When I first came down here to San Miguel, I kept hearing about this guy who had fought in the German Army against the Russians. I was eventually able to meet him (our mission; seek out W.W.II vets -- make 'em talk!). He had emigrated to Canada after getting out of the Gulag in 1952, and retired down here to SMAGTO (San Miguel de Allende, Guanajuato). Anyway, he had been a Forward Air Controller for the Luftwaffe.
He had a lot of really interesting stories; he had gone to Stalingrad with 6th Army and gotten out in early December before they closed the airport. He told me that being Luftwaffe had distinct advantages in being able to get on a transport. He was the only person I ever met who could claim to have been in Stalingrad at the time of the fighting and probably really was.
Anyway, Konrad (his name was Konrad Plumke) had joined the Luftwaffe in hopes of avoiding the fighting, as he was rather tall and figured they would not make him a fighter pilot. Well, they made him a forward air controller and put him on the ground. He rolled his eyes when he told me this and said; "Zo much for my plan." After Stalingrad, he was sent to fight with one of the S.S. Panzer Divisions (I think it was Das Reich) and was eventually captured in the 3rd Battle for Kharkov in around April of 1944 I believe. An explosive from a Russian Tank Killing squad knocked out the Tiger I he was riding aboard and killed the entire crew and left him bleeding from the nose and ears and mostly deaf.
He figured the Russians didn't shoot him because of his Airforce uniform, as opposed to what they would have done to him had he been wearing an S.S. tanker's uniform. He said; "Zey told me to keep valking East. So I did." Konrad had been issued a Sauer and Sohn 38H in .32 ACP as best as we could figure out. The Russians took that off of him before sending him walking.
He was another really interesting guy I got to talk to a few times. One of those people you meet and when you hear where they were and what they experienced you think to yourself; "You shouldn't be here." Konrad died about 1995 I guess, but I'm really glad I got to talk to him and get to know him a bit.
I guess Konrad would not qualify as "aircrew" even though he was Luftwaffe, but the fact he was issued a .32 and Rudel apparently had a .25 made me pause to think that the Luftwaffe didn't seem too interested in issuing heavy caliber pistols to the men. Anyway, this all brought dear old Konrad to mind so I retell the story here.
 
Moondawg, it's worse than that. They have almost all died off, there are not a lot of people left alive who were "there" for the great events -- or maybe I should say great turmoil -- that took place from 1934 - 1945.
Since when I was young, always encouraged by my Dad, I would talk the ears off of any W.W.II vet I could find. Some of them wouldn't talk to me and would send me scampering but over the years I perfected my technique and I think my absolute genuine interest in their stories and remembrances often "won me over" and got a lot of them to talk to me. In later years, I often found they would come and look me up on the advise of mutual friends and we would "chat". I have been so lucky to be able to talk to many of them from many different branches of service and from different countries as well.

At the end of "Bladerunner", the robot played by Rutger Hauer talks about the things he has seen with "his eyes", and when I get the chance to talk to these people who were there I always think of the things they had seen with "their eyes" that could only be related to those of us who weren't there with simple words, descriptions, the odd movement of the hand or the occasional quiver in their voices that really says so much.

Every winter for the past five years, this old German guy has been visiting San Miguel. He's like 95 now, and went into Russia as a Staff Officer with Von Paulus and then got transferred to Africa to be on Rommel's staff. Later, he worked for Von Arnim, and surrendered to the Americans with the Africa Korps when they packed it in. He is great to talk to -- never has to pay for his coffee when I'm around. I still chuckle when I think of him saying; "Wommel, Wommel got all ze news. Wommel loved to be in ze news. Oh, he was vewy brave, no doubt, but he loved ze news. Von Arnim...now ZHERE vas a gentleman! But you never hear of zis." Cracks me up.
I hope the old guy is still alive and healthy next winter and comes back to visit. I'll sit down and talk with guys like that anytime. Living history.
Anyway, this has nothing to do with the topic of aircrew sidearms, but you got me babbling again. I gotta go back to work. Cheers!
 
I wouldn't even want to imagine what it was like to be in the trenches in W.W. I. I only really ever talked to one W.W. I vet, a guy in a Old Folk's Home in Manitoba who had gone "over the top" on July 1, 1916 at the Somme and had also been at Paschendaele.
My Dad always used to say, "Thank God I didn't have to fight in the First War and Thank Jesus I didn't have to fight the Japs." It's just amazing what some people had to endure in the last century, and I guess that some of our good people are having to endure in this one.
Makes anything I ever did seem rather paltry by comparison.
 
It's interesting you mention playing pool. We used to go play snooker all winter because we didn't have an outdoor range. Oh, we would shoot our rifles outside during the winter, but not usually the pistols. So, we used to do all the shooting during our compressed summers and play pool all winter. We found playing pool to be about the closest thing in the '70's and '80's to sharpen our skills. (NOW they have airsoft and video games!) I remember nights during the Canadian winter when you could find a half-dozen guys playing pool in the old Velvet Rail all wearing I.P.S.C./Manitoba shirts.
Even today, if I get a chance to play the odd game of pool (because here in Mexico finding a decent pool table is an exercise in futility), I can usually quite hold my own.
Of course, now that I AM in Mexico, I can go shoot my handguns practically any day if I want to. I just wish we had the FREEDOM to buy whatever we wanted to buy and own whatever we wanted to own instead of the very limited amount of stuff they let us have...but then, I made my own choices, didn't I?

Without intention, we seem to have hijacked this thread. NOBODY is learning anything about Aircrew Weaponry right now, and I feel sorry to be the one responsible. Apologies.
Cheers!
Cal
 
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