AirLite recoil problems

I've been pocket-carrying some kind of .38 S&W Airweight or Airlite for 30 years, currently, a 340PD.

1. Don't carry a light weight gun unless you really NEED the lightness, like pocket carry. In your case, you probably should do WHATEVER is necessary to allow carrying a heavier gun. Belt carry, shoulder holster, purse, etc will allow you to carry something heavier and maybe bigger, in comfort. Consider a 640.

2. Grips make a huge difference, you want nice cushy rubber on the backstrap of the gun. No exposed steel mashing your hand. The Pacymayr Decelerator grips are very good if the extra bulk isn't a problem. If you need smaller, get the Decelerators and have someone hacksaw off the part that extends below the grip frame.

3. Practice with light loads. The softest commercial loads seem to be the Winchester 130 fr FMJ, usually available at Walmart.

4. Practice with the .22 as much as possible. The .38 should be ok with the extra weight and rubber grip backstrap, but only fire ONE shot the first time you try it out. Next week, try 2 or 3. Gradually work up to maybe 25 in one session, that's all you really need. Stop shooting when it starts huring.

You can get over this and become a very competant shooter. When you're done, go whupass on whoever recommended the Airlite to you.
 
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Hello Elizabeth,

Tired or confused reading replies yet? My advice, quit carrying the Airlite immediately! In any quick draw, high stress situation you have a very good chance of not getting a proper grip on the gun and could likely injure yourself again.

I did not read all the replies so excuse me if this repeats another members question. How do you carry? Is gun weight and/or size that major an issue? Why a revolver? There are several concealable, steel or even polymer framed 9mm guns that seem like better options to me.

My daughter frequently carries a Walther .22 LR. She is situationally aware, has taken unarmed defense classes and considers her gun just one part of keeping herself safe. If I know ahead of time I am going to a gunfight I will take my M-1 Garand, SKS or 50 round FN PS-90. For concealed carry I switch guns regularly to meet individual situations and some times I (gasp) leave the house without a gun.

I am willing to bet I have not said anything that was not already covered or you have thought of yourself.

Bottom line: Change to a gun you are comfortable and proficient with.
 
Elizabeth, as you've discovered why I won't ever recomend an airweight to a newbie or smaller framed shooter, it takes years to build up to the recoil these featherweights can produce.

It's also an issue when you get older and your wrists can't tolerate the recoil that you once could, which is why I don't own any featherweights and carry a Sig P239 in 40 caliber.

I would suggest that you sell that featherweight and except that your tolerance for recoil is limited. If you want to stay with a wheelgun, take a look at one of the heavier stainless J frames, such as the model 60. If your willing to take on a semi auto and don't have problems with racking a slide, I've found my Sig to be 100% perfectly reliable and a lot easier on the wrists than a lightweight revolver.

Bottomline, you chosen a revolver that just isn't suitable for you. So, don't waste any more money on new grips, it won't solve your problem, the recoil is just too extreme. Time to dump it and move on.

PS, I for one don't buy into that saying that you won't notice the pain if you need it in an emergency. I have no doubt that the actual pain will go without notice, because I know from experience that this is true. However, I am quite certain that your ability to achieve a targeted followup shot will be greatly impaired. That is something that is commonly ignored by those who think they can shoot one of these featherweights without any practice. As I have found out, it takes a fair bit of practice to achieve reliable accuracy in rapid fire and those skills degrade quickly without practice. So, it's important to choose a carry gun that you can enjoy shooting, because if you don't, your carry gun may be about as effective as a single shot derringer.
 
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I'll say it - Carry your .22
Yeah - I know...

It's ALL about shot placement. You HAVE to practice enough to be proficient, and know that you are, to make a good shot under stress. A good shot doesn't mean that you hit the individual that you're aiming at - It means you hit a point that you're aiming at inside of that that individual!
If it hurts to practice with a weapon you just won't. Use what you practice with - It needs to be second nature when you HAVE to use a gun... Only practice will get you to that point.
 
I agree with Ronnie, I carry a 296 (44 spl) and I shoot it seldom. I do most of my practice with my model 21 (44spl) and carry it often also. I think the 357 is a brutal round anyway as with most magnum calibers. I would maybe go to a 38 spl + p or a 357 load that is lighter. Or do as I do and get a steel frame 357 to practice with. My opinion is that the airlites are made to carry and not shoot a lot.
 
Hello to all my new best friends! :)

Talk about an embarrassment of riches, information-wise -- great problem to have. I'm going to try to address as many of you as possible below, though not by name as there have been so many (thanks!) and some repeated comments.

In reviewing your replies, I've considered the history of how I ended up with the various guns that I have. There was a break-in at my house two years ago with two strong suspects: one was totally random, and one was highly personal. Sadly, it's never become clear which one it was, so I've had to stay on alert ever since. I quickly arranged for some lessons and was able to try a variety of guns during the lessons. I settled on the Ruger SP 101 as the best all-around solution at the time, having become convinced (as I remain) that I would never become proficient enough with a semi-auto to clear a jam in a hurry if needed.

I was still experimenting with various means of carry, and the Ruger felt awfully heavy, which is when I added the AirLite, which had been pointed out for that purpose. Shortly thereafter, I had the afore-mentioned hand injury which brought everything to a screeching halt. Months later, I started trying gingerly with the Ruger again, only managing 10-20 shots per session before it got too ouchy to continue. Months after that, I got the .22, as it was obvious I just needed to get trigger time somehow.

Meanwhile, I had settled into a fanny-pack for carrying (nothing else is practical, given the way I have to dress for work). Since lightness won't be as critical for this, I may well give that up, given how this has all worked out. My plan is try carrying the SP 101 again this week, to see if it feels like an absolute brick or like something I can get used to. On the happy chance that I find it liveable, I'll just ditch the AirLite (anybody want it?), use the Ruger for carry and limited practice, and the .22 for most practice. I fire only .22s and .38s, and am currently using the lightest load .38s that are available; my friend recently got into reloading and has offered to make some light loads for me as well.

I will also test-fire a Ruger LCR at the earliest opportunity; if it seems noticably better, I'll make the switch. I wish I could test the other models suggested, but I lack means to do that and don't want to invest in yet another gun that might not work. I am of light build and am 51, so I lack both the mass and tissue resilience to deal with this kind of recoil, obviously. This has definitely been a learning experience.

If the Ruger isn't better enough to make the switch and the SP 101 is too heavy to lug around, I'll try the Gripper Decelerator on the AirLite. I investigated the other grips mentioned, and the only one that might work would be the LG-405, but that's a big investment to make in a gun I might not keep forever. I tried a significantly heavier revolver (couldn't tell you what it was) with a wood grip once and still felt like my hand had been hit hard with a hammer, so even though a thoughtful argument was made for going that route, the idea makes me cringe.

If worst comes to worst, I will most definitely use the .22 for carry, and had even already considered that. The issue of course, is that it won't reliably stop someone, but it beats the heck out of having nothing and hey, at least I get eight chances instead of five!

I'll let you know how it all shakes out. It is SO much better to try to figure this out with this level and quality of information -- I can't tell you how much.

Elizabeth
 
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An airlite or airweight in 32 H&R magnum is also something to consider. The same light gun but with much more manageable rounds and much less recoil than an airlite using .38 special rounds even . It holds six rounds also.
 
...
If worst comes to worst, I will most definitely use the .22 for carry, and had even already considered that. The issue of course, is that it won't reliably stop someone, but it beats the heck out of having nothing and hey, at least I get eight chances instead of five!
...
Elizabeth
Nobody wants to get shot with even a .22, and the history of these encounters is that about 90% are ended by just the display of the gun by a person who is obviously willing to use it.

Men seem to get a "cartridge inferiority" complex more easily than women. Don't make the same mistakes we do!

When you find a .38 that works for you, carry it. Until then, remember that
"You can accomplish more with a kind word and a gun, than with just a kind word."
 
The issue of course, is that it won't reliably stop someone...

If you think a round from your 22 in the eye won't stop someone then you deal with much badder folks than I've ever met ;)

Remember ==== SHOT PLACEMENT :eek:
 
Nobody wants to get shot with even a .22, and the history of these encounters is that about 90% are ended by just the display of the gun by a person who is obviously willing to use it.

This is a super-helpful reminder. I love your ending quote, by the way.

I had to laugh (ruefully) at DeadAye's comment about shooting someone in the eye. Obviously, I will need MUCH more range time.
 
I will need MUCH more range time

QUALITY range time!

Forget the silhouette targets and pictures of Zombies, etc. I prefer targets with several small bull's eyes on them. With the pistol in a *non-ready* position, pick a bull's eye and concentrate on it. Point and fire. After a while you can do this very accurately and very quickly. It does take practice though.
In a confrontation focus on the point of entrance that it will take to hit your target. Your actual target is somewhere inside the *object* that you're firing on. Most do not understand this concept and seem to figure that a volume of fire is what is needed... Hence large capacity magazines and even big bore, high power rounds. None of us want to be down range of these folks' target!
I heartily recommend that anyone carry the largest weapon that he/she can comfortably carry and accurately fire. But even a 44 Magnum requires correct shot placement to quickly stop a threat!
 
Well, you all inspired the interesting experiment described below. The description is long, but hopefully a worthwhile read for those who may be interested. For those who aren't interested, at least read the stuff at the end (Results, Notes):

*****

Recoil Comparison – S&W 340PD AirLite with Pachmyer Gripper vs. Ruger LCR with stock, factory-installed grip -- testing done 4/29/10. Blind, live-fire testing (not as crazy as it sounds) was conducted to determine the comparative recoil between the AirLite and the LCR and to eliminate any pre-existing bias towards either gun skewing the results.

Basic testing procedure:

Shooter with eyes closed to fire each gun as randomly presented by the assistant, and to numerically rate the discomfort of recoil after each shot. Shooter would never know which gun was coming next, and ideally wouldn't be able to identify the gun in hand due to holding it just long enough to grip, shoot, and immediately give gun back to assistant.

Assistant to randomly present guns and to record all results. Rating was on a 0-10 basis, with 0 being no recoil at all, and 10 being unbearable to fire more than once.

Safety measures:

Testing was done at the outdoor pistol range of our gun club. The range is cut deeply into a large hill so that when you enter the range, you are surrounded on three sides by very high dirt embankments. Firing was in the direction of a long 10-foot or higher embankment, to ensure that no shot would stray in a dangerous direction. Assistant would also have been able to provide warning to shooter if aim was wandering from safe area; happily, this was not necessary, other than to inform shooter that aim was tending to get lower over time. No significant lateral variation occurred.

No one else was on club premises at the time of testing.

We worked out the mechanics of the gun hand-offs first with an unloaded gun. Got the bugs worked out quickly this way, with zero risk.

The shooter remained in position throughout the entirety of testing, to increase consistency of shot placement. This worked very well.

The assistant supplied guns to the shooter's waiting hand from behind the shooter's firing side. The assistant would ask, "Are you ready?" The shooter would present the firing hand and say "Yes." The assistant would then place the gun in the shooter's hand. The assistant's hand was always behind the line of fire, and was completely clear in any event each time a shot was fired. The assistant was directly behind the shooter at all times.

Reliability measures:

Shooter kept eyes closed for the entirety of the testing session, to ensure no visual cue of any kind that would help shooter predict what might be coming next.

Assistant, without having previously discussed this with shooter, included three additional guns randomly in the rotation (Ruger SP 101 – a .38 snub; Ruger GP 100, a heavy .38; S&W Model 317 AirLite – an aluminum .22) to further hinder shooter's ability to identify the AirLite or LCR when firing them. While the weight differences among guns made it very easy to identify the lightest and heaviest among them, the constant change in grip type did make it much harder to get a fix on which of the test weapons was actually in hand at any given time. Numeric ratings were recorded for all shots, including the guns included only to increase randomness (the .22 with shorts actually scored a zero).

Shooter wore a lightly padded glove primarily to survive the repeated test-firing of high-recoil weapons, but found that the glove also impeded ability to identify the gun in hand since tactile features of the grip were less evident. This was excellent for the purposes of testing, and did not seem to impede gripping/shooting ability in any way. It actually provided a good psychological and physical advantage to a shooter with a history of nasty recoil injury.

Different loads were tested, even in the .22 (shorts and longs), to minimize shooter's ability to pick up any pattern at all, and to see if patterns in results between the test guns were consistent with different loads (they were).

Lighter loads had been made for this test: 4.3 grains of Unique Powder w/ 125 gr jacketed soft-points and Remington #5.5 primers. These were used for the first round of testing to reduce wear on the shooter.

Regular target loads were used for the second round of testing: Remington Eagle 130 gr total copper jacket round-noses.

Each round was five shots for each gun (plus various shots from the other three decoys); more than this would have been nice for data collection, but just not practical due to simple pain.

Results:

Recoil discomfort increased as a cylinder got emptier. This may be because these guns are so light that the weight of bullets in them may actually make a difference you can feel. It's hard to know for sure however, since each succeeding shot also happens with a slightly more beat-up hand.

Recoil discomfort increased across an accumulation of impacts (no surprise, but included here for completeness).

Patterns noted between the test weapons were the same with both lighter and heavier loads, in that (and this was a surprise), the LCR scored slightly worse than the AirLite.

The average recoil score for the light load round was 3 for the AirLite and 4.8 for the LCR. This is not a good result however, as most of the AirLite shots occurred early in this round, while most of the LCR shots occurred later (when there was more shooter fatigue).

The average recoil scores for the target load round were much closer, but still favored the AirLite (7.3) over the LCR (7.6). The AirLite and LCR shots were much more evenly balanced through this round, so this seems like a solid result.

Notes:

Doing this test was fascinating, and major fun. All the more so because the end result was actually the opposite of what we expected. No wonder the Mythbusters people enjoy themselves so much; I think we must have looked/sounded a lot like them when we were going over the data and saw what we saw. I would jump at a chance to try something like this again, and doing this gave me critical information in deciding what to do about my carry weapon (I'm keeping the AirLite, putting a Gripper Decelerator on it, and practicing with a glove).

As much as you're sure you "know" something, you really don't until you've tested it. I would have bet big bucks against the AirLite, and I'd have lost. I don't think anyone would have guessed this outcome. It's got to be the grip, but that's just a guess. If anyone with two AirLites and different grips wants to chime in, please do.

The safety measures seemed reasonably complete, and all worked smoothly and very well. There was no moment of concern for either the shooter or the assistant at any time during the test, or in retrospect. Nothing went the slightest bit wrong. We had a blanket spread in front of the shooter in case any of the pretty guns got dropped, but this didn't even almost happen.

If you decide to do a test like this for whatever reason, make sure when you're randomizing the shots to get the test weapons equally represented throughout the sample to make sure the test conditions for each are as close to identical as possible. Otherwise, your results won't be meaningful.

The LCR feeling worse than the AirLite was informally verified by the assistant (owner of the LCR) who tried both after testing. On an amusing note, the assistant then put a couple of .357 mags through the AirLite. The first was followed by, "OW!" The second was followed by, "This is stupid. I'm done."

*******

Thanks to everyone who contributed information and got the wheels turning in a direction that resulted in this outcome. I'm feeling confident about where to go from here on the issue, and hope the info above might be inspiring, helpful, or at least interesting/amusing to someone else.

Elizabeth
 
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Heck, I can barely handle my 638-3 with +P loads, so the first two rounds that index under the hammer are 148 gr. wad-cutters! Call me wimpy, but I hit what I'm aimin' at!
 
Elizabeth,

I'm not in agreement with everyone telling you to get rid of the Airlite, because you will determine whether, or not, it is best to do so. I would try to make that gun work for you before going on a wild goose chase for another gun. Let me explain further.

Airlites are the handgun world's equivalent to a race car and very few people can drive a race car to it's full potential. To give you some perspective, I carry and shoot guns that are downright nasty on both ends. My belt gun is a 5" .44 magnum and I use three different .357 snubs as part of my carry line up. I use full power ammo in all of them except my 360 pd!!! In other words, I can't drive the "race car" to it's full potential either. I use Speer Short Barrel .357s (a managed recoil load) in mine and it's still downright brutal. However, just because I can't run the "race car" with "full throttle" ammo doesn't mean that it's not worth owning. For me it is, you will have to determine if it is for you.

Of highest importance, you have to think of different power levels of ammo as gears in the race car. First gear would be target wadcutters. While intended as target ammo, the late Jim Cirillo, who was a veteran of many gunfights spoke highly of their effectiveness. While I don't think they will always perform on par with good modern .38+P JHPs, they will work better than any .22 and give you the reliability of a centerfire cartridge while punching a deep, full caliber hole. Wadcutters are what I load in my wife's 3" model 60. FWIW, my wife is a very petite 4'7" 90 lb. forty year old woman, and she can shoot target wadcutters from my 360 PD Airlite. If you try wadcutters and they still kick too much, then at that point I would say that yes, the Airlite needs to go and is unworkable for you. As an ammo source, while I have not tried their products, I have only ever heard good things about www.mastercast.net . They sell remanufactured wadcutters and they're affordable. Wadcutters also give you the advantage of being able to use the same light recoiling ammo for practice and carry.

Second gear would be std. pressure .38 expanding bullets. Hornady offers their 110 gr. critical defense load and Federal makes the 125 gr. Nyclad hollowpoint. Product information for each should be availabe on the manufacturers websites. These loads should perform a little better than wadcutters, but that performance will come at the expense of a little more recoil. My hunch is that this is the most powerful ammo that will work for you, but in case I'm wrong........

.....third gear, .38+P JHPs. These will not be pleasant by any means for most shooters. There are also many excellent loads in this catagory. I'll tell you about my three favorites in case I'm wrong about your recoil tolerance.

The 110 gr. Corbon DPX load is the most reliable expander in this class of cartridges amongst those I tested. DPX features a solid copper bullet that performs well against barriers such as auto glass, and drywall.

The Speer 135 gr. +P Short Barrel cartridge features the same excellent bullet as the Speer SB .357 offering and has amassed a reputation as a solid performance based on street shootings. NYPD uses this round in it's .38 revolvers.
The Short Barrel bullet is bonded, so it to is designed to do well against auto glass, sheet metal ect. Such barriers oftentimes tear the jacket off of conventional JHPs.

The 158 gr. LSWCHP +P (lead semi-wadcutter hollow point), also known as the FBI load. Buffalo Bore offers too versions, one std. pressure and the other +P. The std. pressure round is reputed to kick like and offer velocity on par with other makers +P offerings of the FBI load. Remington's version of the FBI load is also popular. Other makers, such as Federal and Winchester, make a version of this load, but use harder lead, so most people in the know stick with Remington, or Buffalo Bore.

Given the three bullet weights I listed above, one is likely to shoot to point of aim.

Fourth gear, managed recoil .357s such as the Speer SB.357 and Remington Golden Sabre. Don't even go there.

Fifth gear, full house .357s. You've got that T-shirt. Nuff said. I don't go here. The last time I fired a single cylinder, my right hand took a month and a half to recover.

Admittedly I haven't read every post in this thread, so I apoligize if I'm redundant. My hope is that you find some of this information of use, and I wish you the best of luck.
 
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Wow, lots of good info here even for an old dog like me.

One more thought about recoil-
If a gun makes your hand (or shoulder) hurt, there is a natural tendency to hold it loosely so that it will hurt less.

In reality, the opposite happens. The loose hold allows the gun to get a running start and really wallop you hand or shoulder.

The only person I can remember who thinks Magnum loads are tolerable in an Airlite, is a guy has has a hugely strong grip. He can hold the gun so tightly that the force is spread all over his hand instead of just into the thumb/finger web.

The spring-type grip exercisers can cause tendonitis according to a physical therapist i know, she recommends a stiff foam rubber type instead. Not sure where to get those.
 
The Tyler-T grips do not list the S&W M&P 340. Does anyone know if the Tyler-T grips fit a S&W M&P 340 ? Sounds like it might be a good item to add to a J Frame.
 
Airlite for me "Never"

Owning a Model 60 3" chambered for .357, after 5 rounds of .357, that was it for me. I'll stick with the old .38 special or +P.
 
I would try to make that gun work for you before going on a wild goose chase for another gun.

First gear would be target wadcutters... will work better than any .22 and give you the reliability of a centerfire cartridge while punching a deep, full caliber hole.

Second gear would be std. pressure .38 expanding bullets. Hornady offers their 110 gr. critical defense load and Federal makes the 125 gr. Nyclad hollowpoint.

Thank you for such a thoughtful and detailed reply! I've been at the "third gear" level and it's just never worked, so I'm going to have to give that up. After having done the LCR test, I'm inclined to try wadcutters in the AirLite and see if those are tolerable; if they aren't, I'll start looking into some of the other models that have been suggested in this thread. Even that will have to wait a bit however, because I overdid it a bit with testing and need to rest the hand at least two weeks. I'd actually have been okay, maybe, except I went back to the range the next day; my hand wasn't bothering me and I figured the guns hadn't been fired enough to justify the time it was going to take to clean them. I fired the AirLite twice (horrible), fired the SP 101 twice (horrible), and then maybe 50 or so out of the .22 (even that was ouchy). I wonder if I still have some lasting deep-tissue sensitivity from the first really bad injury, because I've never been able to get close to shooting the way I was before I first got hurt. I literally did not shoot for six months after, and have often been months between sessions since, yet I still get beat up pretty readily, it seems. I note that shooting in pain really destroys accuracy -- I know you all knew that, but it's been striking to me to see just how bad it is. Clearly, that has to be eliminated.

I'd give it up altogether except that I believe I really need to have a reliable method of self-defense available, and I don't want to be one of those people who just has a gun and hopes to be able to manage it effectively in a moment of need, despite no practice for months/years/ever beforehand.

I'm determined to figure out something workable one way or another, and the info from this thread has been really helpful in this regard. Any additional info that comes to anyone's mind is always appreciated, so I'll be keeping an eye on the thread. I hope to someday post here that I have found a workable, long-term solution and give you the details of what that ends up being. Experimenting continues...

Elizabeth
 
One thing that comes to mind is that doing much of one's practice with mild loads, but using the weak hand instead, will bolster the skills with that hand (which are a must, IMO) as well as giving the strong hand time to heal.

Elizabeth, I once injured my shooting hand as a teenager and it took several months to heal. I eventually went to a doctor and was told that I had bruises in the bones themselves. If you haven't seen a doc, and the problems persist, it might be a good idea to get X-rayed.

I seriously admire your moxie in even atttempting what you did. My prayer is that you suffer no permanent infirmaties.
 

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