AirLite recoil problems

[Jimmymac46]

the air lite guns are just bad to the bone, i have a 342 i carry in my pocket in 38 special and it is bad ,i can not imagine your gun in 357 mag.
they are guns for carry and not for shooting alot. if you get to big of a grip it will defeat the purpose of a small carry gun.

Uncle Mike's combat grips are the best compromise in my view. They are big enough and small enough at the same time and work well on my 342. I am able to slip the gun in the front pocket of my Levi's and retrieve it with ease. They came stock and I am able to handle the pounding with out effort.....with the proper ammo. That gun in 357 is entirely unnecessary in my opinion. With a 2 inch barrel, the extra velocity you obtain is modest at best, yet creates heavy recoil, muzzle blast, and the resultant lack of control and accuracy. Shoot only wadcutters or a modest 38 rounds to obtain reliable performance with moderate discomfort.

 

[Ed333]

change gun, not grips...

Hi Elizabeth-
A year ago I acquired a model 327sc, fired a total of 56 rounds of ordinary factory .38 special thru it, tried several different grips, and promptly sold it, all within a week. And I am 6'3" and 240 lbs. Different grips are not going to make enough of a difference for you. Unload the Beast, and find something else. I personally am fond of my 640, and as to other alloy frame snubs, I have had good success shooting my Colt Cobra and a m.37 (which I wish I still had). The new Ruger may be a good choice, I have dry fired one, and was impressed with the trigger feel.
IMHO, an effective carry piece should be something you are quite comfortable with and feel good about, and are good with, an old friend if you will. Not something you dislike or dread handling.

 

[andyo5]

I had one of the scandium guns (M340, I think) for awhile but couldn't bear to shoot .357s with it. I traded it in for a M642 and carry it with 38+P loads.
I decided that if I felt I needed more power than that, I'd carry my Kahr CW45. The Kahr is a small 45 that is light, easy to conceal, and easy to shoot. It handles like a revolver (but is a 45 auto), is more accurate than the J frames, and in some ways is easier to conceal except it is not quite small enough to slip into my pocket.
If you insist on shooting .357s with a J frame, you might look at the model 640.

 

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

One thing that comes to mind is that doing much of one's practice with mild loads, but using the weak hand instead, will bolster the skills with that hand (which are a must, IMO) as well as giving the strong hand time to heal.

Elizabeth, I once injured my shooting hand as a teenager and it took several months to heal. I eventually went to a doctor and was told that I had bruises in the bones themselves. If you haven't seen a doc, and the problems persist, it might be a good idea to get X-rayed.

I seriously admire your moxie in even atttempting what you did. My prayer is that you suffer no permanent infirmaties.

All excellent advice, IMO. I'm sure that you need to give your strong hand a rest, at the very least. If you want to keep shooting anyway, it certainly won't be wasted time to be using your other hand.

Meanwhile, it is almost impossible to overemphasize the importance of your choice of grips. Unfortunately, other people's experience is of limited use in choosing grips, because hand size and strength varies. For instance, many people will tell you that a Tyler is good thing, which it is for many people. On an Airweight RB it is NOT a good thing for me. Although I have fairly small hands compared to some, my middle-finger knuckle gets rapped by the trigger guard when I use a Tyler on a RB Airweight. Instead, I use just Magnas and grip the gun like I'm trying to crush the grips and squeeze the frame a little thinner. This works very well for me. It may not work for you.

There is some possibility that Pachmayr Presentations (not a small grip) will work well for you. The ones made for SB J-frame revolvers work just as well on a RB. It is even possible that your Airlite will be tolerable with them, particularly with factory 148 WC ammo, which I and some others believe may be an excellent defensive round.

Give your wounded hand a rest, and possibly medical attention. It is certainly admirable to keep trying to get back on that horse, but at this point I think it counterproductive, unless done only with the unwounded hand, which is great practice that most of us need to do more of.

 

[indiuckian]

First of all, welcome to the forum.

For what it's worth, I have been shooting for 60 years. I carried a .41 magnum as a duty side arm for many years.

Presently, I carry a stainless steel J-frame .357 mag, 640-1, loaded with standard .38's much of the time.

My wife carried a Medium frame .38 as a duty weapon for years.

We both have aluminum framed .38s, 442 and 642, for when hot weather precludes anything very heavy, but they are always loaded with standard .38 loads.

I wouldn't even consider shooting a .357 in one of those exotic metal airweights. My Momma raised some dummies, but they was my sister!!

So many new shooters are done a real disservice by those advising an unobtainium snubbie as a first gun.

Try some of the new standard .38 loads, or find a gun that is comfortable and fun to shoot. That Ruger is a good place to start.

Bad guy or paper target, your mind knows that your hand and wrist are gonna hurt when you pull the trigger and your body will react accordingly.

You can't defend yourself adequately if you hate/fear to pull the trigger because of pain.

Keep us posted on what you do and good luck.

.

I think this gent nailed it. I got over the few extra ozs after switching from a 296 airlite ti 44 special at 18.5 (ouch, and I do mean ouch) to a 640-1. Carrying a weapon for personal protection is a heavy responsibilty and a little extra weight can serve as a reminder. Just my opinion.

 

[flop-shank]

That gun in 357 is entirely unnecessary in my opinion. With a 2 inch barrel, the extra velocity you obtain is modest at best, yet creates heavy recoil, muzzle blast, and the resultant lack of control and accuracy.

Control and accuracy are shooter dependent. I've seen a guy who could shoot full house stuff very good from a 360 PD. While I won't dispute the recoil and muzzle blast, one can expect about 200 fps. more from full house .357s compared to .38+P in a 2" barrel IIRC. That's no small gain in velocity.

 

[shawn mccarver]

Hi all,

I'm relatively new to gun-ownership and totally new to this forum. I carry a .357 AirLite PD, practice with a .22 AirLite, and also do some limited practice with a Ruger SP 101. I'm really hoping some of you may be able to address a question.

The problem is that the AirLite I carry is beyond brutal for me to shoot, even with the Pachmayr Gripper grip currently installed on it. It is so painful that I generally won't go through more than one cylinder, and it's miserable to do even that. I tried firing it more when I was first training, and ended up with a hand injury that ended all shooting for about six months.

I see that Pachmayr also markets a Gripper Decelerator which they claim addresses the recoil problem a bit better. Does anyone have any experience with this, and if so, what do you think?

Also, is anyone aware of a grip that would give even more recoil protection? I'm looking for the friendliest possible grip that I can find, as my hand is apparently unusually sensitive to this kind of injury, but I'd like to be able to practice enough to be proficient if I ever find myself in a self-defense situation.

Any input would be most appreciated. Thanks much!

Elizabeth

I would shoot the lightest 38s in it you can find to get used to the trigger, etc., and only the occasionally 38 +Ps for familiarization. Since you probably do not use pocket carry, I would suggest you get some full size grips in the softest rubber (Pachmayr decelerator or Hogue, or something similar).

My daughter practices with the 100 grain wadcutter or the 148 grain wadcutter. The 100 grain double end wadcutter loaded to a moderate velocity is very usable in these light weight J frames, at least in the opinion of my daughter.

 

[starbuck]

I feel comfortable carrying my S&W 386pd which is a 7 shot lite carry gun loaded with .38 Nyclads. I believe it is an L frame and hugs my hip with an IWB holster. It is carried all day and I forget I am wearing it since it feels so comfortable. I had the trigger pull lightened and the action is very smooth.
I occasionally carry a S&W 296 .44 sp but after 4 rounds it starts to hurt my hand and I want to remove the last cartridge without firing.

 

[Casehardn]

My 637 is fine with 38spl ...and stout (but manageable) with 38+p.
I cannot image firing .357 out of an airweight frame.

I own a 2.5" 686 and .357 is very comfortable for me because of the steel frame. A steel frame is going to go a lot further in soaking up recoil than just changing the grip on an alloy frame.

I know you asked about grips but you may want to consider a steel framed gun if your set on shooting a .357

 

[TennTony]

First off, I am very impressed by your data gathering. I got a couple thoughts reading your comments. First, concerning grips, when I got my Airweight my aging hands could not maintain a proper hold with the factory grips. Changing to longer grips that allowed my pinky to contribute made the gun hugely easier to shoot. The new grips are not "padded" better. They allow my hand to counter the rotation of the gun better. Second, as you mentioned, just the weight of the unfired ammo makes a difference. Try finding heavier grips.

My $.02 for today.

 

[snubshooter]

I didn't read all the posts but have you considered porting the barrel? I don't really like porting snubs but it is a good option for controlling recoil.

 

[flop-shank]

I didn't read all the posts but have you considered porting the barrel? I don't really like porting snubs but it is a good option for controlling recoil.

The problem with porting, muzzle blast issues aside, is that it works better with high pressure loads (think full house .357). Porting, when coupled with lower pressure stuff like .38 std. and +P tends not to reduce recoil to any significant degree.

 

[AirLitenewbie]

Good news -- my shooting hand is getting better on a daily basis, so I think I managed to side-step major re-injury; I'll maintain the minimum two-week rest period and I suspect that will put me in the clear. I have no problem waiting longer if I have to, and in the meantime, will take the good advice about working the other hand. There's been a lot of information and experience to process, and I'm still catching up with it all. Today's revelation is that if WCs out of an AirLite beat anything out of a .22, then real bullets out of a friendlier .38 are better still.

It has been an uphill battle with this AirLite from the beginning, and as I consider my experience and all the info I've gotten from this thread, it now looks pretty obvious that I have to go to an SS J-frame, complete with Decelerator (which I now have), and then use that with the lightest loads feasible. The physical size of the frame matters more to me than its lightness, so this seems like the way to go. This way, I'll have a .22 for practice that matches (with a Gripper that matches as well, so the form factor will be identical).

I've looked up the various models mentioned in this thread, and it appears that either the 60 or the 640 would work. In fact, they look identical to me other than a .5 oz weight difference, so can anyone tell me how they're different, and why I might want one over the other? Also, any ideas on what a decent one used would sell for?

One more thought about recoil-
If a gun makes your hand (or shoulder) hurt, there is a natural tendency to hold it loosely so that it will hurt less.

In reality, the opposite happens. The loose hold allows the gun to get a running start and really wallop you hand or shoulder.

Happily, I think I can say I've got this part right. A gun shop guy made this point to me some months back, and I've gotten pretty good at staying way up on the back strap, with as firm a grip as I can manage. Shooting blind, maintaining that grip was the only thing I really worked on.

Regarding the LCR vs. AirLite test (on page 4 of this thread), I have to give huge credit to my friend who helped me with it. He did all the work of shuffling guns, changing loads and documenting results while I just stood around pulling triggers for an hour. Thanks, Harold.

Stay tuned for the next episode of As The AirLite Turns.

Elizabeth

 

[flop-shank]

Model 60 vs. 640; well, both are great guns. IMO the decision should depend on your trigger finger strength. I shoot all my double action revolvers in DA mode. Thumb cocking a revolver is a waste of time and contrary to popular opinion does not aid accuracy if one has excercised due dilligence by mastering the DA trigger. It also leaves one with a dangerously light and short trigger, which is something that a person pumped full of adrenalin is better off without. However, Some people, such as my wife, lack the hand strength to fire a DA revolver one handed. For her, single action shooting is the only option. Only you can decide which group you fall into.

For those with stronger hands, the 640 is the better choice, IMO. For them the model 60 has the unnecessary single action feature, a hammer that can snag on the draw (super icky), and one more opening for dirt to find it's way into the gun. For those who must do all their shooting SA, the model 60 is the obvious choice.

As far as practice goes, Keith Jones, a police officer who is the winner of four deadly force encounters and always worth listening to, said in an interview on Proarms Podcast that when the officers in his agency switched from .38 +P to .357 magnum revolvers, they changed their practice routine and actually started hitting better in real gunfights with the more powerful .357s. What his agency did was take the 120 rds. a year allotted to each officer and, instead of shooting 60 rounds twice a year, started firing 12 rds. ten times a year. Now I'm all about burning more ammo than 120 rds. a year, but my point is that frequent practice is more important than round count. I try to shoot every week but usually shoot between twenty-five and forty-five rounds. There is nothing wrong with using a .22 for practice, but I just use my carry guns and keep cost down by using handloads for my range work. For non reloaders a place like Master Cast can help to keep cost within reason.

Elizabeth, FWIW, if you aren't familiar with www.corneredcat.com , that website might be worth taking a look at. When it comes to guns, sometimes men and women are on different wave lengths, so that site, which is run by a woman and gear toward women might be of value to you.

 

[Ed333]

60 vs 640

I have had both versions of the 640 (.38 special only and the slightly beefed up magnum J frame .357 version) as well as the current (new) version of the model 60, and they are all great. I will say that the triggers on both of my 640's were smoother than my model 60, but the m.60 has smoothed up a lot with use, after 1500 rounds of .38 special, no magnum rounds. I ordered my m.60 new, got a discount, paid $550. Put Crimson Trace grips on it, it does extremely well. The only "drawback" I can think of is the presence of the hammer, which is not a problem for me. The internal lock is a non-issue for me, but not for some folks.
I paid $450 (shipped) for my 640-1, the .357 mag Centennial, subsequently sold it, preferred the 640. I got a deal on the 640 at a local dealer's, happened to be there when someone brought it in for trade, jumped on it at $375 + tax, great deal.
I also had a m.60-7 LadySmith, which I gave to my personal trainer, it cost $495 shipped, which was a fine piece with smooth trigger, as well as a 9mm 940, which is a bit snappy, and had extraction issues. As long as you are in the J frame family, you could also look at the Bodyguard, a m.649, sticking to stainless steel frames here for simplicity and practicality. I have a Bodyguard which I would be willing to sell.
You can't go too wrong on any of these. Your method of carry would dictate whether the m.60 should be in consideration, whether snagging the hammer would be likely, although even there, you can have the hammer spur cut off.
Another thing, all these are quite accurate, I shoot falling plates matches, and don't miss many. Not the fastest, but don't miss many. Just takes practice and focus, more reasons to have a comfortable gun. Life is too short to own an ugly gun.

 

[TSQUARED]

Hi all,

I'm relatively new to gun-ownership and totally new to this forum. I carry a .357 AirLite PD, practice with a .22 AirLite, and also do some limited practice with a Ruger SP 101. I'm really hoping some of you may be able to address a question.

The problem is that the AirLite I carry is beyond brutal for me to shoot, even with the Pachmayr Gripper grip currently installed on it. It is so painful that I generally won't go through more than one cylinder, and it's miserable to do even that. I tried firing it more when I was first training, and ended up with a hand injury that ended all shooting for about six months.

I see that Pachmayr also markets a Gripper Decelerator which they claim addresses the recoil problem a bit better. Does anyone have any experience with this, and if so, what do you think?

Also, is anyone aware of a grip that would give even more recoil protection? I'm looking for the friendliest possible grip that I can find, as my hand is apparently unusually sensitive to this kind of injury, but I'd like to be able to practice enough to be proficient if I ever find myself in a self-defense situation.

Any input would be most appreciated. Thanks much!

Elizabeth

I empathize with you relative to the recoil. The most I can handle for a 50 round practise session is a S&W 642 in 38 Special or my Kahr PM-9 in 9mm - i fact I can shoot more rounds through the Kahr PM-9 before noticing it than the 642. In my opinion the Airlite with 357 Mag ammo would be great for dealing with an encounter but I would only use it in range sessions with 38 Special ammo.

 

[sonny]

Yes, I can appreciate that recoil problem. Bought a as-new Smith 325 in .45 ACP. It tore up my web (thumb/forefinger) in 10 rounds. Sold it. I'm staying with Smith j-frame .38's (model 442 Centennial) or if you want .357 Mag, then I use a 640-1 Smith (j-mag frame). I practice with .38's; carry .357's.
You might as well just cut your losses and buy a gun that you are not afraid of. Mine had me flinching for a while and that's a nasty thing. Plus, you won't practice when you KNOW you're going to get hurt. And I was using PACT recoil gloves...
Buy something that you can practice with, without pain.
Sonnytoo

 

[AirLitenewbie]

Yep, the AirLite is for sale, for sure this time. I just posted it on PAFOA, since I have a better chance of a local sale through that site. The hunt is on now for a 640, preferably used. It is definitely time to find a gun/ammo/grip combination I can be comfortable friends with -- this cringy, repeat-ouch thing is for the birds. I had no idea what I was really getting into when I bought the AirLite. It does not hurt my pride at all to say "Uncle" now and move on.

For those who missed earlier posts, I never, EVER, fired .357s through this, nor would I. That hurts to even think about. Yikes.

Elizabeth, FWIW, if you aren't familiar with www.corneredcat.com , that website might be worth taking a look at. When it comes to guns, sometimes men and women are on different wave lengths, so that site, which is run by a woman and gear toward women might be of value to you.

I just took a quick look at this site, and... wow. It looks incredible and I intend on giving it a thorough review as time permits. I actually choked up when I saw the quote: "Not me. Not mine. Not today." Apparently, the break-in and related concerns have left some residue (duh), but it feels a lot better to be doing something about it than just hoping for the best.

The path this has led me on over the past two years has not been a smooth one, to be sure, but all these twists and turns were necessary to learn what I need to learn, so... onward and upward. When it's all over, I'll have something that works well (even given my limitations), and I'll have the satisfaction of knowing that if someday, the moment comes, at least I'll be in the fight.

Thanks to all of you who are helping me figure it all out.

Elizabeth

 

[AirLitenewbie]

As far as practice goes, Keith Jones, a police officer who is the winner of four deadly force encounters and always worth listening to, said in an interview on Proarms Podcast that when the officers in his agency switched from .38 +P to .357 magnum revolvers, they changed their practice routine and actually started hitting better in real gunfights with the more powerful .357s. What his agency did was take the 120 rds. a year allotted to each officer and, instead of shooting 60 rounds twice a year, started firing 12 rds. ten times a year. Now I'm all about burning more ammo than 120 rds. a year, but my point is that frequent practice is more important than round count.

This is a very helpful piece of information, and takes the pressure off as far as what I have to do for proficiency. I thought it was about amassing hundreds and hundreds of rounds of practice, but if it's possible to be effective with higher frequency/lower quantity, that gives my hand a much better chance to live through all this. I'm inclined to do lots of .22 practice in any event, but may now limit the real rounds as detailed above, and not feel like I'm doing myself the disservice I may have thought. Thanks!

 

[Dale53]

Elizabeth;
I don't know whether or not this has been stressed to you or not. However, whether young or old, female or male, EVERYONE will benefit from doing LOTS of double action dry firing. Get yourself some "snap caps" that fit your chosen revolver and dry fire (I put up a target in my family room). Just consider it "going to the gym". You are trying to do two things by dry firing. You are training yourself to hold a sight picture while shooting double action and you are training your hand muscles (muscles that you do NOT normally use in the course of your day). You strength will build at the same time your skill level increases. They go together. You will literally be AMAZED at how much stronger you become in just a few weeks.

Of course, take all reasonable precautions to INSURE that you are using an empty gun with only snap caps in it.

This is the single best thing you can do to both improve your ability when shooting double action and increase hand strength.

FWIW
Dale53