Hi. I'm new to the forum. I have a S&W model 686 six shooter with a 6" barrel. I just bought a box of Federal P38HST1S Micro for personal defense and was wondering if this is a good choice for this length barrel considering the low muzzle velocity. This gun is mainly used at the range with unjacketed slugs (.357 Remington & Blazer 38 special), but I want it loaded for defense at home. My other two semi-automatics are Glock 19 loaded at home with Hornady Critical Duty JHP and my concealed carry gun is a Ruger EC9S loaded and chambered with Winchester personal defense JHP. Can anyone offer opinions on my choice for the 686? Thanks in advance!
Ammo Choice
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As good as any. I also have a six inch 686. I don't depend on it for protection, but if I did, I'd load up with 158 grain lead SWC .38 spl cartridges. Much cheaper than booteek-bullets and do the same job.
99% of shooters won't agree, but bullets are bullets. Handgun hollow points seldom expand, even in fast loadings like .357 mag. Bullets dug out of bodies (I've seen plenty) look beat-up, but they seldom make the mushrooms and flowers seen in the bullet ads. Penetration and shot placement are what will save your life, not the latest whiz-bang "defense" load.
In my M&P 9mm carry gun, at the moment I have 147 grain flat point FMJ loaded up;. They'll make the same hole that the dollar fifty a shot "premium" defense loads do; as a bonus, they'll penetrate cover if I have to when some of the fancy JHP stuff might not.
Avoid full house .357 for personal protection. They make the same 36 caliber hole, but feature greatly increased blast and recoil.
99% of shooters won't agree, but bullets are bullets. Handgun hollow points seldom expand, even in fast loadings like .357 mag. Bullets dug out of bodies (I've seen plenty) look beat-up, but they seldom make the mushrooms and flowers seen in the bullet ads. Penetration and shot placement are what will save your life, not the latest whiz-bang "defense" load.
In my M&P 9mm carry gun, at the moment I have 147 grain flat point FMJ loaded up;. They'll make the same hole that the dollar fifty a shot "premium" defense loads do; as a bonus, they'll penetrate cover if I have to when some of the fancy JHP stuff might not.
Avoid full house .357 for personal protection. They make the same 36 caliber hole, but feature greatly increased blast and recoil.
Thanks for the input. With the FMJ are you not concerned that in a defense situation your round(s) have a better chance of continuing through your target to a possible innocent bystander?
3rdgeargrndrr
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Welcome ! The 686 is a modern classic
Without chronographing those loads, you dont know if they are low velocity. The published velocities on the box are probably measured out of a short barrel.
That said, to me, the 686 6" is a beefy gun that handles 357 loads without much recoil. If you have only 6 rounds make them all count.
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Out of 6" barrels you can literally pick any box of defense rounds and it will probably function great as there is usually enough velocity for it to work well.
I know its not cost effective but run as many rounds as you can to ensure reliability in all conditions, shoot as practical as possible within your range rules , and shoot into wet media to test them in YOUR guns to measure depth and mushrooming
Best of luck
Without chronographing those loads, you dont know if they are low velocity. The published velocities on the box are probably measured out of a short barrel.
That said, to me, the 686 6" is a beefy gun that handles 357 loads without much recoil. If you have only 6 rounds make them all count.
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Out of 6" barrels you can literally pick any box of defense rounds and it will probably function great as there is usually enough velocity for it to work well.
I know its not cost effective but run as many rounds as you can to ensure reliability in all conditions, shoot as practical as possible within your range rules , and shoot into wet media to test them in YOUR guns to measure depth and mushrooming
Best of luck
Bumpus13
Member
Since you asked about loads for home defense ...
Ditch the .357 magnums for this role. Use .38 Specials (+P if you want)
Why???
Are you going to have time to put on hearing protection if you need to shoot?
Have you ever fired .357 Magnum indoors?
Are you interested in permanent hearing damage?
Load that 6" 686 with some quality .38 HP's - They will certainly get the job done if need be.
Ditch the .357 magnums for this role. Use .38 Specials (+P if you want)
Why???
Are you going to have time to put on hearing protection if you need to shoot?
Have you ever fired .357 Magnum indoors?
Are you interested in permanent hearing damage?
Load that 6" 686 with some quality .38 HP's - They will certainly get the job done if need be.
Lobster Picnic
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I agree. I once asked about which .357 ammo I should use for home defense in a 16" carbine.
"Any of them" was the answer.
DonD
Member
Simply cannot believe some of the stuff that is said about defensive ammo on this forum. Any centerfire uncorked in a room will be loud, have ear muffs near your defensive gun.
And to even remotely suggest that some lame 158gr .38Spl wadcutter is even in the same universe of capability of a full snort/maxed out .357 is simple insanity.
And for one who said .357s JHPs don't expand, research applicable FBI protocol gelatin/clothing/sheet metal/dry wall testing. 357s go through the barriers and make the gelatin bounce all over and penetrate.
My Ruger GP100 ran 1595fps with a Buffalo Bore 158gr JHP, nearly 900 ft lbs and a .38 Special at 200 ft lbs is comparable??? Ludicrous indeed. Don
And to even remotely suggest that some lame 158gr .38Spl wadcutter is even in the same universe of capability of a full snort/maxed out .357 is simple insanity.
And for one who said .357s JHPs don't expand, research applicable FBI protocol gelatin/clothing/sheet metal/dry wall testing. 357s go through the barriers and make the gelatin bounce all over and penetrate.
My Ruger GP100 ran 1595fps with a Buffalo Bore 158gr JHP, nearly 900 ft lbs and a .38 Special at 200 ft lbs is comparable??? Ludicrous indeed. Don
cmj8591
Member
The round that always seems to come out on top in the "one shot stop" studies is the 125 grain, 357 JHP. That's what I have in my gun. It just works. Load your gun with it and put it in your night stand draw with a good flashlight and sleep well. We all know how important good ear protection is but at 3am, when someone is coming in your bed room window, you are not going to take the time to put it on before you engage. Your hearing loss will be small compared to the amount of deafness you will suffer if you are dead. I look at the different articles written about home defense and it makes me chuckle sometimes. They want you to have back packs, tool belts with every kind of tactical gimmick know to man. Its all a lot of nonsense. Take your 686 and learn to shoot it then shoot it some more. When you think you are proficient, shoot some more. Put some good, quality ammo in it and remember that shot placement trumps everything and that no amount of tactical equipment stored next to your bed is going to make you a better shooter.
I think most of the replies to this thread have valid points. not having LEO experience, I believe an encounter in my home would be loud and crazy, possibly in some darkness. Hope I never find out! my bedroom gun is a LCR Ruger .38 with Hornady defense loads. feel like that's enough, since that's what I carry in my truck to work. my old 158swc would also work
DonD
Member
For Univibe, take a look at Luckygunner and you'll see virtually EVERY round of the hundreds tested expanded, some not a great deal as their HP clogged with clothing and other things or in most cases, significant expansion, often 40-50% or more.
If wadcutters worked, then the FBI and most police departments would be carrying them and none are. So feel free to expose yourself to self inflicted inadequate ammo. Don
If wadcutters worked, then the FBI and most police departments would be carrying them and none are. So feel free to expose yourself to self inflicted inadequate ammo. Don
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The round you've chosen is just fine for your gun. The HST Micro is designed for short-barrelled guns, meaning the charge is designed to drive the bullet to proper velocities to get reliable expansion and penetration.
Lucky Gunner has a review of it here. You'll see that there's a slight uptick in velocity in a four-inch barrel, so you're six-inch barrel should see another uptick as well. The charts at Lucky Gunner will give you a lot of good information that you can use to determine the right self-defense round for you.
One thing about 158gr Semi-wad cutters, especially hollow point versions. They're a bad choice for self defense compared to much better options out there. The HP versions don't expand and they over penetrate. You might as well be using round nose bullets, which have been useless in .38s for over a century now.
Lucky Gunner has a review of it here. You'll see that there's a slight uptick in velocity in a four-inch barrel, so you're six-inch barrel should see another uptick as well. The charts at Lucky Gunner will give you a lot of good information that you can use to determine the right self-defense round for you.
One thing about 158gr Semi-wad cutters, especially hollow point versions. They're a bad choice for self defense compared to much better options out there. The HP versions don't expand and they over penetrate. You might as well be using round nose bullets, which have been useless in .38s for over a century now.
The medical examiner and the ER doctor can't tell the difference, looking at the body, whether it was a 158 grain LSWC going 800 fps out of a .38, or a .357 JHP. Ask one.
.357 bullets fired into people usually don't expand. The lead nose smears, the jacket sheds pieces (even the vaunted "bonded" bullets do this) but they almost never make the pretty mushrooms/flowers seen in the ads. I've seen plenty. That's just the reality of it.
Handgun bullets usually do not expand in people, and typically blow right through with minimal expansion, if any. This is true of the 900 foot pound Buffalo Bore load, and the puny .38 load. Both typically will make a .36 caliber hole all the way through a person and professional pathologists can't tell the difference.
Round nose bullets and SWC bullets are just as deadly on humans as any $1.50 per shot hi-tech hollow point. They've been killing people efficiently for centuries, and were never "useless."
99.4% of shooters won't believe this.
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3rdgeargrndrr
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If hollow points didnt expand and cause some catastrophic damage then why did NATO ban them?
Well, this seems to be one of those good better and best disagreements that I am not going to enter into, except to say, that while I am a fan of S&W revolvers, my home protection is a 45acp loaded with standard 230 gr. hardball ammo. It seemed to work well in 2 world wars, Vietnam, Korea and God only knows where else. Just my .02
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Welcome also.
I suspect you have adequate means of home defense with 16 (31, 46?) rounds of 9 mm in your Glock, and if you keep it loaded 8 (15, 22?) rounds in your Ruger. If you want your 686 loaded as well, the (6, 12, 18?) .38 Special rounds you bought are listed at 130 gr at 890 fps. If you can get accurate, fast and multiple hits with it I wouldn't stress too much over it not being a full .357 load. Good luck in your decision.
Because they are seen to violate some rule. Only New Jersey bans them in the USA.
Same thing on tear (CS) gas. It's banned from war under international rules against gas warfare stemming from WW1. Police have no problem using it on Social Justice Warriors on the streets of the USA.
It's about the rules, not the actual effects.
Have to agree with Pete. my 1911 .45 would seem to be a real "stopper"....this thread is very interesting
DonD
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Good reason 99.4% of people don't believe it. As I said neither do any police departments, the Secret Service, the FBI, DELTA or the SEALs. I guess you know more than they do about stopping a fight.
Wonder why no ammo manufacturers produce ammo they recommend for defensive purposes with lead slugs, only hard cast for magnums. Gee you must be onto something, go revise the ammo industry. Sigh. Don
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Bumpus13
Member
Well yeah, but there's a big difference between .357 Magnum and .38 Special.
Also ... "Excuse me Mr. Bad Guy, wait a second while I put my hearing protection on."
Well, as I said, I am not going to enter into this, BUT I will say relative to ammo manufacturers, that I am sure there is a marketing niche here that needs to be kept in mind. I would much rather sell 20 rounds for 35.00 than 50 for 20.00, but I need a way to make that happen. Just a thought
There is no magic round for handguns concerning self defense. All (45,357,10mm, whatever) are really weak compared to rifle or shotgun. Advantage of handguns is thier, well, handiness. Pick a round you feel comfortable with and forget about it.
My HD revolver is loaded with the old FBI load, 38sp +p 158gr lead semi-wad cutter hollow point. Proven on the streets, and thru testing. Adequate penetration and expansion out of a 4-inch barrel. I can shoot it more accurately at speed than the magnums.
Subtly
My HD revolver is loaded with the old FBI load, 38sp +p 158gr lead semi-wad cutter hollow point. Proven on the streets, and thru testing. Adequate penetration and expansion out of a 4-inch barrel. I can shoot it more accurately at speed than the magnums.
Subtly
DonD
Member
This comes from an involved forum participant, 8 posts in 9 yrs. ??????
I can keep heavy .357s from a 3" Ruger SP101 in COM fairly rapidly. Don
post #11; plus........
that 6" will shoot any ammo ok except..........
if you saw the net test with that load, you would have heard the shooter state
that the load out of a 4" barrel was a lot SLOWER than the snub nose.
With the extra friction of a 6" would you get a "Squib" ?
Feel lucky?
that 6" will shoot any ammo ok except..........
if you saw the net test with that load, you would have heard the shooter state
that the load out of a 4" barrel was a lot SLOWER than the snub nose.
With the extra friction of a 6" would you get a "Squib" ?
Feel lucky?
DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE REPORT REGARDING THE
CRIMINAL INVESTIGATION INTO THE SHOOTING DEATH
OF MICHAEL BROWN BY FERGUSON, MISSOURI POLICE
OFFICER DARREN WILSON
https://www.justice.gov/sites/defau...doj_report_on_shooting_of_michael_brown_1.pdf
"In fact, Witness 102 told investigators that he knew "for sure that [Brown's] hands were not above his head." Rather,Brown made some type of movement similar to pulling his pants up or a shoulder shrug, and
then "charged" at Wilson. It was only then that Wilson fired five or six shots at Brown. Brown paused and appeared to flinch, and Wilson stopped firing. However, Brown charged at Wilson again, and again Wilson fired about three or four rounds until Brown finally collapsed on the ground. Witness 102 was in disbelief that Wilson seemingly kept missing because Brown kept advancing forward."
"Wilson shot and hit Brown as few as six or as many as eight times. Brown fell to the ground dead as a result of a gunshot to the apex of his head."
Hollow points, .40 caliber, solid torso hits that had so little effect a witness could not believe that cop missed so many times. Killing living things is not like shooting jello. (Before someone chides me, killing may be exactly what is needed to STOP an attacker disinclined to being stopped.)
Two legged or four outside of destroying the central nervous system it is a crapshoot if they will run out of blood or fight before they get to you with any small arm cartridge.
CRIMINAL INVESTIGATION INTO THE SHOOTING DEATH
OF MICHAEL BROWN BY FERGUSON, MISSOURI POLICE
OFFICER DARREN WILSON
https://www.justice.gov/sites/defau...doj_report_on_shooting_of_michael_brown_1.pdf
"In fact, Witness 102 told investigators that he knew "for sure that [Brown's] hands were not above his head." Rather,Brown made some type of movement similar to pulling his pants up or a shoulder shrug, and
then "charged" at Wilson. It was only then that Wilson fired five or six shots at Brown. Brown paused and appeared to flinch, and Wilson stopped firing. However, Brown charged at Wilson again, and again Wilson fired about three or four rounds until Brown finally collapsed on the ground. Witness 102 was in disbelief that Wilson seemingly kept missing because Brown kept advancing forward."
"Wilson shot and hit Brown as few as six or as many as eight times. Brown fell to the ground dead as a result of a gunshot to the apex of his head."
Hollow points, .40 caliber, solid torso hits that had so little effect a witness could not believe that cop missed so many times. Killing living things is not like shooting jello. (Before someone chides me, killing may be exactly what is needed to STOP an attacker disinclined to being stopped.)
Two legged or four outside of destroying the central nervous system it is a crapshoot if they will run out of blood or fight before they get to you with any small arm cartridge.
cmj8591
Member
Like I said, whatever one feels comfortable with...go for it.
And who knows, maybe all the flash and bang from a full house magnum touched off in a dimly lit hallway will scare off the zombies all by itself!
Subtly
Yes, I indicated that I have Federal 38 HST +P loaded for home defense. I was just wondering about its efficiency in comparison to what others with the same gun might suggest.
bigggbbruce
Member
One 4th of July, some people tossing fireworks, an M80 landed in a gravel driveway behind some girls. The rock that hit one girl penetrated her calf muscle and hit the bone.
This rock could have killed someone.
Ignore the bravado here. Anything Federal makes these days is a good choice. Don't over think things.
Self defense shootings inside the home happen at very close range. A 38 will do the job. But personally, I would grab the Glock .
Harkrader
Member
By coincidence I took my 686 to the range last week. I fired several cylinders-full of full-house 357Mag and then switched to homebrew .38Special +P: 125-gr SJFP at ~1050fps. I threw 75 rounds of that downrange.
That is close to my favorite premium ammo, Hornady Critical Defense .38 Special +P, a 110-gr FTX bullet at ~1100 fps.
One woman to whom I taught defensive shooting, chose a 686+ and became proficient with .38+P. Another chose the Colt Detective Special, and also chose the .38+P.
I trained them, and others, with Black Hills, Cor Bon and Federal Hydrashock. You can't go wrong with those.
That is close to my favorite premium ammo, Hornady Critical Defense .38 Special +P, a 110-gr FTX bullet at ~1100 fps.
One woman to whom I taught defensive shooting, chose a 686+ and became proficient with .38+P. Another chose the Colt Detective Special, and also chose the .38+P.
I trained them, and others, with Black Hills, Cor Bon and Federal Hydrashock. You can't go wrong with those.
