Can someone explain why the Apex DCAEK/Comp AEK kits differ between the .45 and the other calibers, but the FSS kits will fit all the calibers? Aren't they comprised of the same parts, other than the trigger of course? I'm wanting to install a Poly FSS on my FS45 and just wondering what the difference between the kits were. I'm new to M&P's, I've always been a 1911 guy (have 6 in different configurations) so I spoilled. I've been reading several of the posts here on Apex parts and I'm thinking that may be what I need.
Another Apex FSS trigger question?
- Thread starter jfjohn77
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Forward set trigger and sear.
https://apextactical.com/store/product-info.php?pid70.html
If you care, the FSS takes you out of Stock/Production divisions in competitions due to being an illegal external modification.
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robkarrob
Member
You are correct, the duty/carry kits and the competition kits show separate kits for the 45. The FSS show the same kit for all models (except no present kit for the Shield). Has to be something with the difference the way the trigger cams with the FSS. I'll send a question to Jon at Apex. He is good at returning replies, and I will post the answer, when I get it.
If you are not familiar to the FSS kit, it moves the break point a little forward, compared to their other kits, which move the break point a little rearward. But the biggest change the FSS kit makes is it removes almost all the trigger pre-travel. When you start pulling the trigger, you are almost immediately starting the sear pull. With the other kits, there is around 3/16 inch of trigger pre-travel, before the sear pull, but with all the kits, there is only about 1/8 inch of trigger forward travel, to get the reset.
Bob
If you are not familiar to the FSS kit, it moves the break point a little forward, compared to their other kits, which move the break point a little rearward. But the biggest change the FSS kit makes is it removes almost all the trigger pre-travel. When you start pulling the trigger, you are almost immediately starting the sear pull. With the other kits, there is around 3/16 inch of trigger pre-travel, before the sear pull, but with all the kits, there is only about 1/8 inch of trigger forward travel, to get the reset.
Bob
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Thanks Rob, I suppose I could have done that also, just wasn't thinking..... figured someone here might know.
Also wondering why they don't just offer the forward set sear alone or does it have something to do with the trigger contact. Is the trigger included with the FSS kits the same trigger offered by Apex separately?
RICKENBACKER53
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The only possibility would be the timing of the sear: FSS kit does warn that you may need to adjust your trigger bar. So that has to be the answer
robkarrob
Member
Answer about the differences from Apex:
"The only difference between the standard M&P and 45 M&P kits is the sear itself. The 45 has a shorter trigger bar in relation to the engagement point of the sear which means we had to move the sear lobe forward by X amount on the 45 sear to make it work in the 45 frame every time. In some cases the standard sear can be used in the 45 and the same is true the other way around, but to keep things consistent when it came to trigger pull weights and over travel distances, we created two different sears. Using a 45 sear in a standard M&P will yield a longer over travel, by a slight amount and decrease the pre-travel an equal amount. In our years of professional training and shooting, we found that by eliminating over travel to less than .030 of an inch, we achieve better accuracy across the board, so the increase in over travel was most important with the production of the 45 sear.
The FSS kit allows us to control things more precisely because we're eliminating the factory's over travel stop and replacing it with our own. Since we're replacing the trigger and sear by installing the FSS, we have the ability to control pre and over travel in one shot. Remember, the FSS kit does exactly which it's title describes...it sets the contact surface of the sear further forward that the factory sear and by doing so allows us to use the FSS across all the M&P semi autos, except the Shield....Which we're working on a trigger for now."
Bob
"The only difference between the standard M&P and 45 M&P kits is the sear itself. The 45 has a shorter trigger bar in relation to the engagement point of the sear which means we had to move the sear lobe forward by X amount on the 45 sear to make it work in the 45 frame every time. In some cases the standard sear can be used in the 45 and the same is true the other way around, but to keep things consistent when it came to trigger pull weights and over travel distances, we created two different sears. Using a 45 sear in a standard M&P will yield a longer over travel, by a slight amount and decrease the pre-travel an equal amount. In our years of professional training and shooting, we found that by eliminating over travel to less than .030 of an inch, we achieve better accuracy across the board, so the increase in over travel was most important with the production of the 45 sear.
The FSS kit allows us to control things more precisely because we're eliminating the factory's over travel stop and replacing it with our own. Since we're replacing the trigger and sear by installing the FSS, we have the ability to control pre and over travel in one shot. Remember, the FSS kit does exactly which it's title describes...it sets the contact surface of the sear further forward that the factory sear and by doing so allows us to use the FSS across all the M&P semi autos, except the Shield....Which we're working on a trigger for now."
Bob
robkarrob
Member
I was a little confused with the reply from Apex, so I sent them this email:
"Thanks for your reply. This question has come up a number of times on the Forum. I was not aware the stock 45 sear would fit in the 9 & 40 sear housing and work, and vice-versa, but I do understand your explanation of the different engagement point on the 45 sear, and the differences in pre-travel and over-travel it causes. I am still a little confused. You stated you created two different 45 sears. Are there also two different sears for the 9/40s'? I would think one sear is for the DCAEK/Competition kits, and the second sear is for the FSS kits. The confusion is when you go to your website to order the FSS kit, there is no option for a 45 kit or a separate 9/40 kit, there is only the one kit listed. Do they both use the same sear in the FSS?"
This is the reply I got this morning (10-22-13):
"Let me clarify, we have one sear for the standard M&P line 9, 40 and 357, one for the 45 and one for the FSS kits. We also make a Gunsmith fit sear, but we don't sell many, because most people don't want to modify one when they can buy one ready to go.
The FSS kit works in all of the M&Ps. We don't need to change sears for guns in 9 vs 45 because we eliminate the pre-travel/over travel issue by replacing the trigger with our own."
With this extra clarification, I now understand the differences. Not counting the Gunsmith fit sear, they have 3 sears for the M&Ps'. One sear for the 9, 40, and 357 DCAEK and Comp kits. One sear for the 45 DCAEK and Comp kits. One sear that fits all guns (except the Shield) for the FSS kits. The reason the FSS sear works with the 9, 40, and 45, is that when using the Apex trigger (that comes with the FFS kit), that trigger will control the pre-travel and over-travel. When using their other kits (DCAEK & Comp Kits) the sears are different, as with those kits you still use the stock trigger. If they used the same sear, for those kits, the pre-travel and over-travel would vary when using the 45, and then changing to the 9/40, since the stock sear lobe is located in a different position on the 45 sear, than the stock sear lobe location on the 9/40 sear. Apex uses different sears on their DCAEK and Comp Kits, so that the trigger pre-travel and over-travel remains similar between the 45 kits and the 9/40 kits. That way they do not not get a big variation between the trigger pulls form gun to gun and avoid complaints of why one gun's trigger pull is better than the other.
Bob
"Thanks for your reply. This question has come up a number of times on the Forum. I was not aware the stock 45 sear would fit in the 9 & 40 sear housing and work, and vice-versa, but I do understand your explanation of the different engagement point on the 45 sear, and the differences in pre-travel and over-travel it causes. I am still a little confused. You stated you created two different 45 sears. Are there also two different sears for the 9/40s'? I would think one sear is for the DCAEK/Competition kits, and the second sear is for the FSS kits. The confusion is when you go to your website to order the FSS kit, there is no option for a 45 kit or a separate 9/40 kit, there is only the one kit listed. Do they both use the same sear in the FSS?"
This is the reply I got this morning (10-22-13):
"Let me clarify, we have one sear for the standard M&P line 9, 40 and 357, one for the 45 and one for the FSS kits. We also make a Gunsmith fit sear, but we don't sell many, because most people don't want to modify one when they can buy one ready to go.
The FSS kit works in all of the M&Ps. We don't need to change sears for guns in 9 vs 45 because we eliminate the pre-travel/over travel issue by replacing the trigger with our own."
With this extra clarification, I now understand the differences. Not counting the Gunsmith fit sear, they have 3 sears for the M&Ps'. One sear for the 9, 40, and 357 DCAEK and Comp kits. One sear for the 45 DCAEK and Comp kits. One sear that fits all guns (except the Shield) for the FSS kits. The reason the FSS sear works with the 9, 40, and 45, is that when using the Apex trigger (that comes with the FFS kit), that trigger will control the pre-travel and over-travel. When using their other kits (DCAEK & Comp Kits) the sears are different, as with those kits you still use the stock trigger. If they used the same sear, for those kits, the pre-travel and over-travel would vary when using the 45, and then changing to the 9/40, since the stock sear lobe is located in a different position on the 45 sear, than the stock sear lobe location on the 9/40 sear. Apex uses different sears on their DCAEK and Comp Kits, so that the trigger pre-travel and over-travel remains similar between the 45 kits and the 9/40 kits. That way they do not not get a big variation between the trigger pulls form gun to gun and avoid complaints of why one gun's trigger pull is better than the other.
Bob
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Rastoff
US Veteran
I guess the short version would be:
The FSS can work for all guns because you are replacing all the parts, trigger, springs and sear. Where as the other kits you're only replacing the sear and springs. Thus the trigger is the difference.
The FSS can work for all guns because you are replacing all the parts, trigger, springs and sear. Where as the other kits you're only replacing the sear and springs. Thus the trigger is the difference.
