Another Early Nickel Pre-19 Combat Magnum

[RKmesa]

... One other give away I should have caught but didn't. Look at the ampersand on the barrel, not very fat and lazy is it?

Earl:

In addition to the barrel ampersand, note when looking at factory nickel S&Ws from the 1950's, the "N" on the rear of the cylinder is almost always a much smaller "N" stamped under the ejector star, not a large "N" on the rear face of the cylinder.

This is one from 1959, but the "N" is the same on all of my earlier ones (the SN is stamped on the earlier ones on the rear face of the cylinder).

 

[Eddietruett]

I hate what you went through, but I certainly respect and applaud your honesty to the person you sell it to. It would be really easy to pass it on as a beautiful original gun.

 

[handejector]

I found out today that yes it was in pinto configuration when it was sold in Tulsa 2 weeks ago to the person I bought it from. That person has sworn repeatedly that this is how he bought it but today I found out who that seller was and confirmed it was sold there honestly as a parts gun since it was a non factory pinto.

Wow.
Tulsa is an intense show at the busy times. I have several people set up with me. There are usually some friends hanging out, resting, talking about the forum or SWCA stuff or guns, and of course, people looking at guns or showing me guns.
That is PROBABLY the Pinto that was brought to my tables. A friend that was set up with me had two Pinto 19s in his case. A man I do not know asked us to look at the one he was carrying- Pre 19 in this serial range with a nickel frame, blue cyl, and a blue SIX inch barrel. I don't remember hearing his name, so I cannot tell you who it is. I honestly don't remember if it was Fri or Sat. My friends might remember. I told him I thought it was bogus because there were no six inch barrels in the first 5000. As I recall, the barrel and cyl were not numbered. It was almost certainly this gun. I told him I had no interest in the gun. He seemed to really want to move it.

Later, I was busy with someone when he came back by. I overheard two of my friends telling him they were just not interested because the 6" barrel almost certainly made it a built up gun. He left before I was free.


If the GB auction is still visible, post a link to it. If not, post the pics you have.
Also- is it time to out this seller?

 

[EarlB]

Thanks. I could never do that and live with myself. I'd rather lose $2000 (and I may) then throw away my reputation.

Here are pictures of how it looked a couple of weeks ago. I don't think the gunbroker/Tulsa dealer would mind me using them as he didn't do anything but sell a non-factory pinto in this configuration after fully disclosing it wasn't original to the buyer. He sold it in Tulsa to a man that looks like the person that sold it to me who also says he bought the gun at Tulsa but we see how it looks now. Doesn't take a high grade detective to figure it out.

I hate what you went through, but I certainly respect and applaud your honesty to the person you sell it to. It would be really easy to pass it on as a beautiful original gun.

 

[EarlB]

Correct, that is how the cylinder on my nickel 19-1 is. I think this barrel and cylinder probably came from an early 19-2 but that's just a guess. Earl

Earl:

In addition to the barrel ampersand, note when looking at factory nickel S&Ws from the 1950's, the "N" on the rear of the cylinder is almost always a much smaller "N" stamped under the ejector star, not a large "N" on the rear face of the cylinder.

This is one from 1959, but the "N" is the same on all of my earlier ones (the SN is stamped on the earlier ones on the rear face of the cylinder).

 

[EarlB]

That was him and that's the gun. The GB link isn't available anymore but thanks to a forum member I have the pics which I posted.

Earl

Wow.
Tulsa is an intense show at the busy times. I have several people set up with me. There are usually some friends hanging out, resting, talking about the forum or SWCA stuff or guns, and of course, people looking at guns or showing me guns.
That is PROBABLY the Pinto that was brought to my tables. A friend that was set up with me had two Pinto 19s in his case. A man I do not know asked us to look at the one he was carrying- Pre 19 in this serial range with a nickel frame, blue cyl, and a blue SIX inch barrel. I don't remember hearing his name, so I cannot tell you who it is. I honestly don't remember if it was Fri or Sat. My friends might remember. I told him I thought it was bogus because there were no six inch barrels in the first 5000. As I recall, the barrel and cyl were not numbered. It was almost certainly this gun. I told him I had no interest in the gun. He seemed to really want to move it.

Later, I was busy with someone when he came back by. I overheard two of my friends telling him they were just not interested because the 6" barrel almost certainly made it a built up gun. He left before I was free.


If the GB auction is still visible, post a link to it. If not, post the pics you have.
Also- is it time to out this seller?

 

[handejector]

Yep- I'm 99% certain that is it. How many Pre 19s in the 260,001-265,000 block that are converted to 6" Pintos could there have been at Tulsa?
What do you think about identifying the guy you bought it from?

 

[EarlB]

I'm a little uncomfortable about posting it on the forum, but anyone is free to PM me.

Earl

Yep- I'm 99% certain that is it. How many Pre 19s in the 260,001-265,000 block that are converted to 6" Pintos could there have been at Tulsa?
What do you think about identifying the guy you bought it from?

 

[YeshuaIsa53]

When a great gun is tampered with purposefully, misrepresented, and everything else that was done? I'd want all my money back. Keep the grips. He played you, lied to you, used you, for a buck. You should not be worried about your reputation at all.
The heck with him. Sorry.

 

[ME94]

All I can say is sorry to read your story, but I can say thank you for sharing it.

 

[S&WIowegan]

Here's a suggestion for you Earl. Tell the person who sold you this tampered gun that he has a choice: 1. make it right with you, OR 2. be outed on the S&W Forum for the scurrilous rascal he is!

I think letting others know who he is would be a great service to all the honest people who are members of this forum.

I do not mean to pressure you to do something you'd rather not. I'm trying to help think this through. I think you did a classy thing by showing us the facts as they happened.

 

[CJSmith]

Sorry to hear this Earl. It's just sad (although not surprising) that someone would willingly fraud another. I really hope your honestly and integrity on this situation will be repaid to you by the S&W gods.

 

[EarlB]

Thanks. It already has. I've found and will continue to find plenty of wonderful jewels. Sometimes I pay "too much" sometimes I don't - it all washes out. You can't buy and sell things all your life without having some learning experiences and this was just one of many - wasn't the first and won't be the last I'm sure. Though it will be the last with him.

Earl

Sorry to hear this Earl. It's just sad (although not surprising) that someone would willingly fraud another. I really hope your honestly and integrity on this situation will be repaid to you by the S&W gods.

 

[Miata Mike]

I would love to own a nickel model 19 like that one. I really wish I wouldn't have traded off my 19-4 blued.

Too bad you over paid due to misrepresentation. What kind of price were you thinking about for offloading it?

 

[EarlB]

Trust me, you don't want that one and I didn't offer it here because I will not sell anything on this forum that I can not stand behind 100%. Click on the link in my first post above to my nickel 19-1. Now that's something anyone would want and one to look for.

As for the now obviously faked pre-19, it is on an auction stating exactly what it is. I started the bids At .01 with no reserve. It's being sold as a parts gun, shooter and as such I will probably be lucky if it sells for $500-$600.

I would love to own a nickel model 19 like that one. I really wish I wouldn't have traded off my 19-4 blued.

Too bad you over paid due to misrepresentation. What kind of price were you thinking about for offloading it?

 

[sbowenjr]

Sorry man.
That sucks.
They are out there and you will find another that is correct someday.

 

[LLOYD17]

Earl, not a cool situation at all. Really unfortunate there are those people out there.

Not to pile on but another clue is the left hand threaded ejector rod. That smooth area aft of the knurling is the tell.

 

[EarlB]

I caught that thanks to another forum member and then comparing it to my other early pre model hand ejectors including my blue combat magnum that is within 300 numbers of this nickel gun. Plus the N under the ejector star instead of on the cylinder - not to mention the upright narrow ampersand on both sides of the barrel instead of a fat lazy one (like me) and the fact that there is only one dot before .357 instead of 2, or that the font and style is different and incorrect on the numbers in the ejector housing and cylinder - the 3 for instance should have a flat top.

I'll say something that might get me in a bit of hot water, but now that I've been boiled I don't care. It's a problem to me. Everything I mentioned above is NOT mentioned in the SCSW book. I know that there is a desire to not give fakers enough information so that they can't fake something to the point that it's undetectable, However - if you don't know to look for those small details until after you've been burned, it's too late. If this thread can help even one person from making the same mistakes I did, then it was worth it.

I will say this, anytime I post pictures of something - if something isn't right, I WANT TO KNOW! And thanks again so much to the forum member that informed me. I know he agonized with the decision. In my view he had to tell me. If not, I would have kept it until upgrading and God knows I would never want to pass something on even unintentionally that was faked.

Earl

Earl, not a cool situation at all. Really unfortunate there are those people out there.

Not to pile on but another clue is the left hand threaded ejector rod. That smooth area aft of the knurling is the tell.

 

[max]

Earl, not a cool situation at all. Really unfortunate there are those people out there.

Not to pile on but another clue is the left hand threaded ejector rod. That smooth area aft of the knurling is the tell.

I am trying to learn as much as I can. What does this indicate?

 

[EarlB]

If you look at any s&w revolver with a right hand twist ejector rod you will notice only the knurled end and the rod. On the left hand turned guns you have a smooth area as shown in my photo between the knurled end and the rod. Good question, I will never make that mistake again. Earl

I am trying to learn as much as I can. What does this indicate?