Another "I" don't get it...

[diyj98]

I've heard arguments that trigger jobs, spring changes, or a multitude of other things that make a gun more "deadly" as far as a prosecutor was concerned.

But back to cocking a handgun, I've never thought I'd be in a situation where I had to cock a handgun in a self defense situation, but I know one non LEO that killed a bad guy after cocking his Walther ppk and shooting the guy in the head. The bad guy was holding a woman at gunpoint. The shooter stated he needed an accurate shot in order not to hit the woman. He probably had a good point. I'm sure that's why the FBI HRT uses (or least used to use) single action handguns.

 

[rosewood]

Even is someone has some expertise in some things, it doesn't mean their correct about everything. We're all "experts" on the internet. I'd be more interested in documented evidence that handloads vs factory loads was used to convict a shooter.

I am with you. Yet to find a case where this has been a factor. Always speculation.

With all of the companies out there that load ammo that are not major companies, no matter what the head stamp is, there is no way they would know who manufactured the ammo. I bet I see 5-10 small ammo companies at every gun show that use whatever head stamp is the cheapest. I also know enough about ammo and loading that I bet I could coach my lawyer on how to counter any argument an opposing attorney (who usually knows diddly about guns) could muster about firearms. For one, my hand loads are safer and more consistent than factory since each round is inspected individually instead of mass production.

Rosewood

 

[shep854]

Back in the '80s, Massad Ayoob wrote extensively about the legal challenges and risks of DA/SA revolvers. Many of his articles were written with civil cases in mind, where rules of evidence and responsibility are far different (and murky) than criminal cases. He mentioned a number of cases where plaintiffs' attorneys worked to convince jurors that the defendant might have cocked a revolver in the stress and fear of the case, allowing for a 'negligent' discharge which caused injury. After a few of these cases, agencies started removing SA function from revolvers and autopistols.
This was when makers started offering DAO pistols, followed by Glock with the 'Safe Action' trigger and the striker revolution...

 

[Doug M.]

Don't forget the knowingly frivolous prosecution of the Miami officer in ...1984 or so. Ayoob has reported on that one.

 

[shep854]

Don't forget the knowingly frivolous prosecution of the Miami officer in ...1984 or so. Ayoob has reported on that one.

Yes, that was one of the cases I had in mind. Prosecuted, IIRC, by Janet Reno, who became Bill Clinton's Attorney General.

 

[budhall]

The constant admonition is;
"ALWAYS, fire your revolver double action for self defense or the DA will conduct your public execution right there in the court room!"
"Because, after all, you know, you really were not in grave fear of bodily harm or death and it was that "hair trigger" that you created when you cocked the revolver causing a negligent discharge and killing that poor soul that kicked in your door at 3:00 A.M. I know that is a little over the top, but not by much.
I really don't see the difference between a single action semi auto with the safety off or a double action revolver with the hammer back.


IE:
I draw my 1911 and push the thumb safety down and place my finger on the trigger. 4.5 lbs. of finger pressure latter it goes bang and chambers another round. I allow my finger to move 1/16" forward, the trigger resets and 4.5 lbs. latter I get the next bang.


I draw my revolver and pull the hammer back and place my finger on the trigger. 4.5 lbs., most likely 5-6 lbs., of finger pressure later it goes bang. I allow my finger to move 1/4"+ forward, the trigger resets. I now have to pull through double action 8-10 lbs. for the next bang or cock the hammer again for another single action bang at 4.5 lbs...
Both of the above actions will take longer to complete including sight recovery than the 1911 in my opinion.


I am sure I am missing something here and not seeing the facts correctly but "I" don't understand...

To everyone who has commented here, of course make your decision as you will. But remember, when a person is fearful, even scared for their life, we know there is an adrenaline rush. Along with this there is significant loss of fine motor skills and control. This creates a condition where, with a pistol in a cocked condition, there is a greater chance of accidental discharge. Training, that is PROPER TRAINING, is the key to reducing this risk. For example, since the advent of the striker fired "tactical Tupperware", pretty much all proper training is requiring indexing the trigger finger up on the receiver, above the trigger. So whatever your choice of defensive pistol system, be sure to have some significant quality training and practice.

 

[bph9]

Back in the '80s, Massad Ayoob wrote extensively about the legal challenges and risks of DA/SA revolvers. Many of his articles were written with civil cases in mind, where rules of evidence and responsibility are far different (and murky) than criminal cases. He mentioned a number of cases where plaintiffs' attorneys worked to convince jurors that the defendant might have cocked a revolver in the stress and fear of the case, allowing for a 'negligent' discharge which caused injury. After a few of these cases, agencies started removing SA function from revolvers and autopistols.
This was when makers started offering DAO pistols, followed by Glock with the 'Safe Action' trigger and the striker revolution...

In reality it was lawsuits over accidental shootings and department statistics that changed the minds of Police Departments when it was found that when switching to double action only automatics that the accidental discharges and shootings of innocent people went down dramatically.

In the case of the use of Glocks, New York had so many accidental discharges and was at least aware of civilians who were shot accidentally from Cops with their fingers on the trigger that they demanded a heavier trigger pull from Glock. This has been known as the "New York Glock Trigger" which was set at 12 lbs. In 2021 Cop paranoia and lack of good training resulted in the New York Cops screaming for a switch back to the standard 5lb trigger which they unfortunately succeeded in getting. Now of course accidents will skyrocket once again and human life I guess in New York is considered expendable.

In reality New York Police Dept could have had its cake and it too simply by demanding "the existing Glock manual safety" be installed on their weapons. Glock has never offered this option to the U.S. market even though it has in foreign countries who demanded it.

 

[shep854]

In reality it was lawsuits over accidental shootings and department statistics that changed the minds of Police Departments when it was found that when switching to double action only automatics that the accidental discharges and shootings of innocent people went down dramatically.

In the case of the use of Glocks, New York had so many accidental discharges and was at least aware of civilians who were shot accidentally from Cops with their fingers on the trigger that they demanded a heavier trigger pull from Glock. This has been known as the "New York Glock Trigger" which was set at 12 lbs. In 2021 Cop paranoia and lack of good training resulted in the New York Cops screaming for a switch back to the standard 5lb trigger which they unfortunately succeeded in getting. Now of course accidents will skyrocket once again and human life I guess in New York is considered expendable.

In reality New York Police Dept could have had its cake and it too simply by demanding "the existing Glock manual safety" be installed on their weapons. Glock has never offered this option to the U.S. market even though it has in foreign countries who demanded it.

Good points. I do remember that there was at least one aftermarket thumb safety offered for Glocks. Obviously it didn't catch on.