Another one goes back to Springfield

[Anton Chigurh]

Had some good luck/bad luck with a couple of K frames: saw both a 2003 edition 617 6" with TT & TH and a new model 66 at one of my two "go to" shops. Wrangled a decent, actually pretty good, deal for both.
While farting around with the 617, it became apparent the sear engagement was faulty, resulting in the infamous "push-off" condition. Back to the store, and then back to the factory. It happens.
And then while doing a spec check on the 66 (which is a really well made gun with great pulls, both SA & DA, AND I like the 4.2" bbl), I discovered the ball detent is in contact with...............nothing.



Sent this pic to Springfield, they must have seen what I saw, and made it very easy to send the firearm back.
But. It just seems that these kinds of post are becoming way too frequent. I guess I am now a S&W QA associate.
BTW, what is turn around these days? I guess I could call, and probably will, but just tossed the question out with the post.
Not all honked off (the sear situation is almost certainly on the shoulders of the previous owner, and if the 66 gets fixed for free, no issues), just a little sad about the quality of new firearms being turned out these days, not just S&W.
The only "wow" guns I have bought in the last few years are Colt's 1911s, and a SIG 556. No cosmetic or functional issues, unlike some Smiths and Rugers I have bought. Not to mention the whole Springfield Armory XDs "upgrade" situation.

 

[Helderberg]

I had a 442 in for some work and I had it back in about three weeks, free both ways. It is funny you praise Sig as I just went through a real warranty disaster with them, ended up selling both my Sig's and vowing to never owning another Sig in my life. I now have only S&W so I guess it all comes down to an individual's own experience with any company. I know many love Sig but not me after what I went through. YMMV.

 

[Anton Chigurh]

It's a crapshoot. Even GLOCK has had some bad press in the last few years

 

[diyj98]

A friend recently picked up a 629 he ordered new. It has the worst trigger I've ever tried on a S&W. I'm a Smith fan, but I can't believe they let this one out of the factory.

 

[M29since14]

Without meaning to pile on SIG, I have a 556 that cannot be brought to any sort of usable zero. It went to SIG for correction and came back just as sent. I didn't feel like sending it back again and intend to use it with a scope. I am sure they would say it is within spec.

We are buying assembly line guns that are being made as fast as possible to supply the current hysterical demand - and it is showing. The good part is that S&W does better than many companies at standing behind their products, IMO, but that does not mean it's not annoying to have to send your brand new revolver back in for repair.

 

[Anton Chigurh]

It seems SIG had a superlative record when they were made overseas. Not doing as well in New Hampshire, is it? So much for New England craftsmanship. Or, the mother ship just makes them boys crank out the goods with little regard for quality.

 

[Wyatt p. Tato]

I am a long time S&W owner. My first center fire purchase was a model 19, it was my only firearm that failed during use. During my police academy firearms qualification the hammer return spring broke it was sent to the service center for repair I was out of work for 6 weeks waiting for repair. The department did not supply firearms and I could not afford a spare. I have owned many firearms since. The only ones that have needed repair were new smiths. The last 4 I have purchased had problems. Model 25 mountain gun the rights idle stock broke in half, model 640 barrel canted, 9 mm sigma magazine would not stay seated, M&P 9c tool marks inside the barrel reamer had damaged the lands, model 63 misfires caused by tight chambers. All these were eventually repaired, but no more for me.

I have purchased 4 new firearms from another maker this past month. Every one of them was free from problems and has worked perfectly.

I have owned Colt, Browning, Walther, taraus , Glock, Springfield, Rock River arms, smith and wesson, armalite, Ruger and many more.

I have had problems only with Smiths.

 

[M29since14]

I have owned Colt, Browning, Walther, taraus , Glock, Springfield, Rock River arms, smith and wesson, armalite, Ruger and many more.

I have had problems only with Smiths.

Quite a story. I've owned my share of guns too and have to admit I have seen more than a few problems from S&W, but being realistic, I own more S&Ws than anything else.

As to the quality of SIGs made here versus Germany, I think a valid point can be made there. On the other hand, I have seen some great shooting US-made P229s that badly out-shoot my German-made P226 and P228. No company is perfect. They are all cutting costs and ramping up output. If you want a "hand-made" gun, you have to spend the money and folks buying consumer-grade models don't want to do that, but most of us still expect that sort of quality.

 

[Wyatt p. Tato]

Quite a story. I've owned my share of guns too and have to admit I have seen more than a few problems from S&W, but being realistic, I own more S&Ws than anything else.

As to the quality of SIGs made here versus Germany, I think a valid point can be made there. On the other hand, I have seen some great shooting US-made P229s that badly out-shoot my German-made P226 and P228. No company is perfect. They are all cutting costs and ramping up output. If you want a "hand-made" gun, you have to spend the money and folks buying consumer-grade models don't want to do that, but most of us still expect that sort of quality.

I still own 4 smiths. The other four I purchased from the in-named company are far from hand crafted, but they work and have no factory defects.

 

[NZshooter]

We are buying assembly line guns that are being made as fast as possible to supply the current hysterical demand - and it is showing.

Sad, isn't it?

I'm just glad I've been a shooter for a long time and have what I want that was made before the current crisis. Constantly reading about what you mentioned and seeing it at an LGS I work at part time makes me glad I'm not buying new stuff now.

 

[NZshooter]

It seems SIG had a superlative record when they were made overseas. Not doing as well in New Hampshire, is it? So much for New England craftsmanship. Or, the mother ship just makes them boys crank out the goods with little regard for quality.

Blame that jack wagon that destroyed Kimber before moving to Sig and doing the same. Ron Cohen I think is his name? That was before the current situation, too.

 

[Anton Chigurh]

I'd like to read the work analysis that says it is cheaper to pay lots of shipping fees and labor and parts fees to correct a problem that could have been corrected before the firearm left the factory.
But I suspect, with the growth spurt of new shooters (God bless 'em, and I mean that sincerely) many wouldn't know that their "ball detent" is not set up correctly, or even what a "ball detent" is. So that one isn't coming back. Or the slightly canted barrel may get a shrug from some owners. Those aren't coming back.
Maybe I'm on to something here...........

 

[Wyatt p. Tato]

I'd like to read the work analysis that says it is cheaper to pay lots of shipping fees and labor and parts fees to correct a problem that could have been corrected before the firearm left the factory.
But I suspect, with the growth spurt of new shooters (God bless 'em, and I mean that sincerely) many wouldn't know that their "ball detent" is not set up correctly, or even what a "ball detent" is. So that one isn't coming back. Or the slightly canted barrel may get a shrug from some owners. Those aren't coming back.
Maybe I'm on to something here...........

I think you are. Many of mine were sold or traded.

 

[HarrishMasher]

I just had 2 guns come back from S&W for warranty repair this month. Just under 4 weeks turn-around for both.

The timing was off on two new guns. While they were "new", one was manufactured in 2008 and the other 2012. Both 7 shot 357s. I'm sure there have always been issues, just with the internet you hear a lot more about them. And as we all know, those who have problems are more vocal than those who don't.

 

[ISCS Yoda]

Maybe I've been lucky. My biggest problem with a S&W was that the Magna grips on my M27 Classic were cut incorrectly and the topmost points stood above the frame. I thought they'd wear down - then I realized I wouldn't be carrying it enough to wear them down. It took me 4 or more years to finally return them to S&W for adjustment. Stay tuned - that's where they are now.

Other than that I have never experience a problem with a S&W handgun. We'll see what the future holds.....

Does this count? - - Okay, I will admit that I also returned two new 6906 magazines that simply were unfixable, I couldn't load more than 4 rounds into them. That's a recent problem that I bet they rectify quickly for me.

Sidebar: I have only owned 2 polymer pistols. The first was a Kel-Tec P9 that Kel-Tec basically rebuilt for me. It's still junk as far as I am concerned. I put it away in my house......I don't even know where I put it! Weird, but the gun deserves that fate for now. The other polymer pistol is a SIG-SP2022 and it is an inexpensive pistol compared to the rest of the SIG line - and it is TOP NOTCH. Easy to use, accurate, really great gun. It won't replace my love for metal-of-any-kind handguns but it is a high quality piece worthy of mention.

***GRJ***

 

[M29since14]

Sure, they know lots of the weapons they sell are never used, or are owned/handled by dummies, but unfortunately for them, these cost calculations tend to ignore customer goodwill, which is always a moving target and sometimes can be very hard to measure - until it's too late. Then, the fight back is all uphill, and often a very hard climb.

 

[Old cop]

I purchased a Glock 42 based on their reputation as well as my experience w/my old service weapon, a Gen II G23. The G42 was awful, suffered from every malfunction a semi auto can experience. It went back to the factory twice before it was fixed. I lost confidence and traded it away.

I've had similar experiences w/ S&W, Ruger & Springfield. If you buy, sell and trade enough this is going to happen. I'm pretty happy w/my current collection so don't anticipate any more problems.

 

[paintinlace]

Just got mine back took a month...

Hello all, newbie to the S&W Forums but was reading the replies and thought what the heck. I have a 340ct that is known for splitting in two so with my concerns I sent it back to Smith. All was fine with the gun but after they make you send your address and number on a sheet of paper for correct delivery, my gun was sent to my old address. Then sat at FEDEX for a week before I received it. Please note it was left on my PORCH all day! Luckily no one swiped it.. Either way I'm not sure where I stand with Smith, on one hand my Smith has never failed, the Scandium frame was said to have taken 1500 rounds in a fixture with no problems. On the other hand at 600 rounds these things are breaking. I don't know, but I agree with one other person who replied to this post. We are buying assembly line guns so we get what we get. I myself have backed up and went to buying guns that have proven themselves over the years by being nearly 100 years old and still at the range!

 

[Anton Chigurh]

The 66 is still in Springfield, but the 617 got back Friday. Mixed bag on this one. The original TT and TH were re-cut, and is safe now, with a great pull. I only sent back steel, but they restocked it with another Hogue, which is already stowed with the original, since I put Pachmayr Compact Pros on my K frames. So far so good.
Now, where they made me shake my head was that they did nothing with the freckling of 6-8 rust spots that lived under the original Hogue's, on the right side of the frame. I mean...................
I guess since the gun shop didn't specify to clean that up, it just wasn't meant to be.
Nice to get free Hogue's but would rather have had the clean up.

 

[jaymoore]

Reminds me of the off-centered chambered Glocks that started coming in about early 1989. The new chambering reamers didn't have pilots and the folk running the line figured the CNC was good enough to position the reamers correctly.

Ummm, not so much! Some chambers were off enough that there was almost no chamber mouth edge at some random position. So the other side would shave bullet jacket like mad. It was shown to the higher ups, but nothing was done until pistols started being returned for failures to chamber, etc. Even then it took Austria a while to wrap their heads around the drama. Probably ended up swapping out 150 barrels in six months or so.

The point being that especially with automated production, not only are there no eyes on product most of the time, what few inspections get done are centered around known issues.

 

[H Richard]

This is why Nighthawk, Ed Brown, etc. custom makers have prices that start around $2000, and a several month/year waiting time to get one.

 

[old&slow]

I'm a big smith fan. But the last two I've purchased, I've been less than happy with the quality. I have serious doubts about buying any new S&W without going over it with a fine tooth comb..

Sure hope they get their act together SOON.

 

[BE Mike]

I'm a big S&W fan, but at the last NRA convention in Indianapolis I was not impressed with the quality of the guns that S&W had on display. I would have thought that they would want to put their best foot forward. There were some real problems with some guns, i.e. model 66's back in the early 80's when the demand for stainless went through the roof. S&W still make very good guns, but the internals and general fitting and finish can be less than what one would expect from an expensive sidearm. All that being said, I still think that they make some very nice pieces and overall, the chance of getting a problem gun is pretty small.

 

[Edmo]

Three of four current production S&W revolvers I've purchased in the last few years (BG38, 642, & 640 Pro) had to go back to the mothership. Two had to be replaced and the third was repaired. The fourth gun, another 642, continues to be flawless.

S&W has great customer service and a great warranty. They will stand behind their products and make things right. However, my ratio of successes to failures has been less than stellar on recent production guns.

On the plus side, several years ago the hammer stud broke on my early '80s model 60 "no dash" and no local gunsmith would touch the repair. I sent it to S&W and they did a superb repair job and even slicked up the action.

Edmo

 

[perrazi]

for those who got less than great guns, did nobody look at them before you brought them home. with all the glaring problems, why not leave them at the gunshop and let them deal with them or refund your money?

 

[Edmo]

for those who got less than great guns, did nobody look at them before you brought them home. with all the glaring problems, why not leave them at the gunshop and let them deal with them or refund your money?

That could work for some issues on some guns, however not all problems are noticeable when giving them the once-over at the gun counter...

For me, the BG38 and 642 were great in all respects until they suffered from internal failures several hundred rounds into ownership.

The 640 Pro was shipped directly to my LGS from S&W as a replacement for my broken 642. The LGS didn't sell me the gun, but rather was just selected to conduct the transfer. Since this gun was sold to me by S&W as an upgraded replacement, the LGS owned no responsibility in obtaining a repair or replacement.

I think the real "what the heck?" moment happened as my LGS guy was copying down the serial number on the 640 and the rear sight fell off! I heard a "thunk" on the wooden floor and asked "what was that?" He just chuckled and shook his head...

I had the 640 in a box headed back to S&W the next afternoon. It is all fixed now.

Edmo

 

[Mushki]

I must be one of the lucky ones. I have only sent one gun back and it was a high dollar custom 1911 that would not reliably feed hollow points. I am not naming the maker because it was one of my first handguns and truth be told I was probably limp writing it. They did polish the feed ramp and kiss the slide though so who knows. I have not had a "problem" with a single gun since then that wasn't due to wear and tear. That 1911 has been rock solid with nearly 18000 rounds since the return. I have new springs waiting to go in once it starts acting up but I'm beginning to think they are only good for collecting dust.

I just remembered that I do have a pair of shotguns that have issues. One the bolt broke on, it's an old charles daily and I still check regularly for a replacement on gunbroker. I have moved on to a different hunting shotgun. The other is an over and under that when set to fire the bottom barrel first sometimes does not fire the top. Now I just fire the top barrel first. The gun is warrantied but I'm fine with it as is.

 

[jrandyh]

I have owned Sigs since my first 226 in 85. I have around 17 at this time. I bought a 239 earlier in the year and it was a mess. Sig made excuses and was nasty to me. I ended up having to pay 179.00 for a trigger job on a new gun to make it like my other ones. The gun misfed hollow points every round also. I had bought an early 220 extreme right when they came out. I sustained injuries and was ot able yo shoot for 8-9 months.i put the 220 in the safe. In the mean time I bought 3-4 more New Sigs. I started shooting them and left the 230 in the safe. About 14 months had gone by since I bought it and just went through the issue with 239 so was preparing to take it to the range. I tried to get the slide off and it would not come off. I called Sig and they told me to lock it back and let it basically fly off. It came off but when I put it back on same issue. I had to shoot it off again. Then the barrel was in so tight you had to force it out of the slide. They told me to send it back but they wouldn't pay since it was over a year old. This infuriated me with all the money I had spent with them. After getting it fixed I will only buy older German Sigs now. Now I just sent my PC 686 2.5 back for numerous issues.
JR

 

[Kernel Crittenden]

I think S&W hit their quality pinnacle in about 1996. That was about 10 years after Tompkins had bought the company from Bangor Punta. Tompkins sunk some serious money into S&W, bought a lot of new machinery, improved QA procedures, really made an effort to put out a better product.

Then something happened. I think S&W took it in the shorts when they lost all their bread-and-butter LEO business to Glock. There were some dark days in Springfield following that era.

 

[hoc9sw]

Let's see. Trips back to the homeland - seems they are for recent buys.

All bought new in the last 2 years.

Ruger Single-Six - two trips
Ruger bearcat - one trip
Ruger SR45 - four trips, never resolved, sold at a loss
Kimber .45 - two trips
Sig .45 - one trip
Sig .22 - one trip, second in process.
Shield 9 - four trips

Never needed to be sent back or repaired -
Colt .25
Ruger .308
Ruger 10/22
Ruger Security Six
Remington Rand .45